The State Of Israel

[Jesus_lol]

I'm not really too well versed on the subject, but i don't see the point of the USA supporting Israel like it does. the fighting there is already so one-sided in israel's favour, its like the USA came upon a big kid beating up a smaller kid, and gave the big kid a stick. with a nail in it.

[Pomak]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' date='13 December 2009 - 03:33 PM' timestamp='1260678808' post='2019524']
No that is not the site I sourced from, nor is the site I found the sources.

But your respose begs the question, is the Al Arabiya, a pro-islamic newspaper, The Wall Street Journal, The Guardian and National Review are all in a conspiracy of some kind with aish.com?
[/quote]
Pro-Islamic newspaper? err actually its a tv channel last time I checked (with a website) and it is heavily funded by the US govt to offset the coverage of Aljazeera. And most people view it as a pro-govt(both US and Arab) mouthpiece. In other words they hate hamas, not exactly "fair and balanced" if you know what I mean.

[Antigonos]

[quote name='Hussain' date='13 December 2009 - 08:51 AM' timestamp='1260683516' post='2019558']
[url="http://www.alarabiya.net/articles/2009/12/12/93936.html"]Palestinian Christians call on Westerners to reject Zionism[/url]

Hundreds of Jewish settlers angry at reducedsettlement building burned pages of Islam's holy book in an attack on aWest Bank mosque as Palestinian Christians called for sanctions on"evil" Israel and rejected Christian Zionism, press reports saidSaturday.

[/quote]

I notice you do not mention the blanket condemnation of the mosque attack by every high figure in the Israeli government, nor mention those newspaper articles which relate the very high profile investigation to find the perpetrators of the atrocity by the Israeli police. That is bias.

I should like those Christians on this list to sit down with a map of Israel, including the West Bank, and a box of pins and the two Books of Samuel, and put a pin on the map everywhere Jesus' great-great grandfather David was during his life and kingship. 1500 years before the first "Palestinian" ever existed, the Kingdom of David contained Judea and Samaria [which the "Palestinians" are now claiming], and I think it very likely that Jesus would be a "settler" [actually, returning resident] if he lived today. He most certainly would be appalled at the Moslem presence on the site of the Temple.

[Pomak]

[quote name='Antigonos' date='13 December 2009 - 09:03 PM' timestamp='1260698638' post='2019609']
I notice you do not mention the blanket condemnation of the mosque attack by every high figure in the Israeli government, nor mention those newspaper articles which relate the very high profile investigation to find the perpetrators of the atrocity by the Israeli police. That is bias.

I should like those Christians on this list to sit down with a map of Israel, including the West Bank, and a box of pins and the two Books of Samuel, and put a pin on the map everywhere Jesus' great-great grandfather David was during his life and kingship. 1500 years before the first "Palestinian" ever existed, the Kingdom of David contained Judea and Samaria [which the "Palestinians" are now claiming], and I think it very likely that Jesus would be a "settler" [actually, returning resident] if he lived today. He most certainly would be appalled at the Moslem presence on the site of the Temple.
[/quote]

My people once lived on the north of the black sea and if we go back further we can trace our lands to parts of central asia(near Afghanistan). Would we be justified in launching a military campaign against the people who live there now? And then using the locals as slave labour or pushing them into the uninhabitable parts of their land?(Just like what happened to the native americans) Because that is how the "Jewish state" was founded and how it continues to work.

[Antigonos]

[quote name='Pomak' date='13 December 2009 - 04:05 PM' timestamp='1260709522' post='2019627']
My people once lived on the north of the black sea and if we go back further we can trace our lands to parts of central asia(near Afghanistan). Would we be justified in launching a military campaign against the people who live there now? And then using the locals as slave labour or pushing them into the uninhabitable parts of their land?(Just like what happened to the native americans) Because that is how the "Jewish state" was founded and how it continues to work.
[/quote]


Everything in that statement, apart from noting the origins of your people [which indeed was part of the problem of the Balkans, that various ethnic groups felt they had prior rights and that others [Moslems, as a matter of fact] were interlopers who settled there during the Ottoman period, is false, and can be shown to be so, if you would take the time to do some proper research. I can recommend fully documented reading if you wish. I would appreciate it if you would stop regurgitating lies and propaganda. Remember that Jesus was a Jew, and if he were in Israel today, the "Palestinians" would be trying to kill him.

Further, it might interest you to know that 20% of the population of Israel is Arab, fully enfranchised citizens* under the law. Most are Moslems. Arabic is the second official language of Israel, and there is a public school system that teaches in Arabic, and where the students learn Koran and Islam [Hebrew and English are second languages] Every month there are several hundred applications for Israeli citizenship which are made by "Palestinians" who find PA/Hamas intolerable. That shows just how terribly Israelis treat "Palestinians".

In 1948 two things happened which go largely unnoticed: over 800,000 Jews in Moslem countries had to flee for their lives with only the clothes on their backs to Israel, while the Arab countries which surround Israel, after declaring war on Israel, warned the Arab inhabitants that they would be punished as collaborators "when" the Arab armies were victorious and pushed the Jews into the sea, and [i]because of that[/i], the Arabs fled their homes. So far from being evicted, Israeli army officers actually tried to urge residents of some towns to remain, but the villagers didn't want to take a chance. This is documented**. No Arab country was willing to resettle the refugees who had been locked into the Gaza Strip by Egypt. Israel not only took in all the Jews who survived the Holocaust, they took in all those from Moslem countries, and still today is a place of refuge for Jews who are persecuted. Egypt will not allow "Palestinians" to leave the Gaza Strip, and "Palestinians" in Lebanon, Syria, and Jordan are kept in camps because they have more than once attempted to overthrow the host country governments. King Hussain of Jordan survived over 40 assassination attempts

The assertion that Israel uses "slave labor" is worse than absurd. "Palestinians" fight for the chance to work for Israeli employers, because they have conditions and pay whichare so much better than with Arab employers [when there is work at all]. Israel is in a no-win situation: the charge is made that they exploit Arab labor, yet if the border crossings are closed, Israel is accused of starving the Arabs by not letting them work. You can't have it both ways. In addition, the European Union gives the "Palestinians" 40 million Euros a month, which does not go toward making Gaza livable, it goes for buying guns. Hamas cares nothing for its constituents, and indeed, is beginning to look a lot like the Taliban. Gazans are faking illness in order to cross Israel [Gazans are treated in Israeli hospitals for serious illnesses, another evidence of Israeli "brutality", I suppose] and get to the PA controlled West Bank, which is less extreme. This also has been documented.

I should further note that only today an Israeli woman was stabbed by a "Palestinian", and a Kassam rocket was launched on the town of Shderot from the Gaza Strip.

*Not only do Israeli Arabs, both men and women, have the vote, they have several Members in the Israeli Parliament [from their own parties, although most Israeli Arabs choose to vote Labor]. Israeli Arab children, of both sexes, have compulsory education until age 16. Girls cannot be married before 17 which is the age of consent. Although the religious authorities control divorce, instead of simply saying "I divorce you" three times, a man must wait at least a month between repetitions of the words, and they must be pronounced in an authorized Islamic court. Illiteracy, especially among girls, is widespread in certain Arab countries, women do not have the vote in some countries, nor can they drive, and if divorced -- which can be done in the space of less than five minutes-- they not only have no recourse, they lose custody over their children.

**Joan Peters, in her book "From Time Immemorial" fully documents, using the UN's own sources, that in 1948 the "Palestinian refugees" gave as their place of permanent residence over 20 countries apart from the area of the British Mandate, and that some of them admitted to residing in "Palestine" for only two years.

Edited December 13, 2009 by Antigonos

[Maggyie]

The debates about "who was here first" are rather silly and meaningless. Politics deals with reality and the reality is there are now two groups living in the same area. There is never going to be a solution to the problem that involes the Palestinians getting back all their land or the Palestinians accepting the current status quo, which has them under Israel's jackboot. Not going to happen. Ever. Unfortunately everyone is very emotionally invested in the narrative that "oooooo the Palestinians are eeeevil, and the Israelis are noble and just" or "ooooo, the Israelis are eeeeevil, and the Palestinians suffer unjustly."

It just occurred to me that it is rather ironic the way some Americans so vigorously support Israel when they have such a nasty record of spying on us! Inside the Irsraeli intelligence services you can bet their motto is NOT "long live America!"

Edited December 13, 2009 by Maggie

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='Maggie' date='13 December 2009 - 10:28 AM' timestamp='1260714488' post='2019635']
The debates about "who was here first" are rather silly and meaningless. Politics deals with reality and the reality is there are now two groups living in the same area. There is never going to be a solution to the problem that involes the Palestinians getting back all their land or the Palestinians accepting the current status quo, which has them under Israel's jackboot. Not going to happen. Ever. Unfortunately everyone is very emotionally invested in the narrative that "oooooo the Palestinians are eeeevil, and the Israelis are noble and just" or "ooooo, the Israelis are eeeeevil, and the Palestinians suffer unjustly."

It just occurred to me that it is rather ironic the way some Americans so vigorously support Israel when they have such a nasty record of spying on us! Inside the Irsraeli intelligence services you can bet their motto is NOT "long live America!"
[/quote]
Well of course they are spying on us, don't you think we spying on them??

[add]

[quote name='Maggie' date='13 December 2009 - 10:28 AM' timestamp='1260714488' post='2019635']
The debates about "who was here first" are rather silly and meaningless. Politics deals with reality and the reality is there are now two groups living in the same area. There is never going to be a solution to the problem that involes the Palestinians getting back all their land or the Palestinians accepting the current status quo, which has them under Israel's jackboot. Not going to happen. Ever. Unfortunately everyone is very emotionally invested in the narrative that "oooooo the Palestinians are eeeevil, and the Israelis are noble and just" or "ooooo, the Israelis are eeeeevil, and the Palestinians suffer unjustly."

It just occurred to me that it is rather ironic the way some Americans so vigorously support Israel when they have such a nasty record of spying on us! Inside the Irsraeli intelligence services you can bet their motto is NOT "long live America!"
[/quote]

i bet you a quarter, that it is, that is that you's wrong

Edited December 13, 2009 by apparently

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='Pomak' date='13 December 2009 - 02:38 AM' timestamp='1260689931' post='2019591']
Pro-Islamic newspaper? err actually its a tv channel last time I checked (with a website) and it is heavily funded by the US govt to offset the coverage of Aljazeera. And most people view it as a pro-govt(both US and Arab) mouthpiece. In other words they hate hamas, not exactly "fair and balanced" if you know what I mean.
[/quote]

Yes Pro-Islamic. Judging from the article Hussain posted and others like it from that site, it does seem very Pro-Islamic. I understand from past debates with Islamic Apologists that any news article that is critical of Islamic is propaganda, like you have just argued.

The fact remains Hamas did in fact enact a law that legalizes Crucifixion, and Christians are often persecuted in Hamas controlled territory.

The 'problem' with the State of Israel is that it is 'run by Jews.' The hate the middle east has for Jews is astounding, the Jew is portrayed as evil, and vile in very popular propaganda. Even before the creation of Israel Jews were in danger in Muslim nations, many Arab nations sided with the Axes Powers, and Hitler was very popular and his ideology was very popular in Islamic nations.

[JimR-OCDS]

The establishment of the Jewish State of Israel was a disaster from the beginning.

First off, the majority of the people living in the land known as Palestine, Jews, Christians and Muslims,
wanted a secular state, with a democratically elected representative form of government.

The Zionist on the other hand, made up mostly of Jews from Europe and the USA, demanded a Jewish state, and even drew up lines of petition, splitting villages and other owned property inhabited by Arabs.

What seems to be kept secret to Americans, is the amount of terrorist acts the Zionist committed, prior to 1948.

Between blowing up the King David Hotel, which killed over 80 British soldiers and other atrocities,
they spread fear and distrust among the residents inside Palestine, which would lead to all out violence as they declared the petition zone a State of Israel.

One atrocity which help feed the distrust of the Zionists, happened between 9 and 11 April 1948, where over 100 Arab townspeople were massacred by Jewish paramilitaries in Deir Yassin near Jerusalem in the British Mandate of Palestine.

In 1948 when the Arab nations attacked the newly declared state of Israel, Palestinian civilians fled their homes, some in order to get out of the way of the on coming Israeli Army and others were driven out of their homes at gun point by Israeli soldiers. These people thought that once the shooting stopped, they would be able to return to their homes. However, such was not the case. Hundreds of thousands were driven out by Israeli forces, some being placed on buses, and sent out into the desert areas of Gaza and the West Bank, which to this day, serve as refugee camps. Jews from Europe took over the homes of those Palestinians, being told by the Israeli government, that the houses were merely abandoned.

Such was not the case and since then, the people driven out of their homes, have been seeking to return to them, but it has not and will never happen.

Since then, we now have generations of dislocated and dispositioned people, who only seek justice.

Of course the radical terrorist group, The Muslim Brotherhood, jumped right into the cause and helped Hamas become a thorn in the side of those who seek peace, especially those who advocate a separate Palestinians state. Their goal, total destruction of the state of Israel, which will never happen.

So, here we the rest of the world, have been stuck with this perpetual violence ever since 1948, when the Jewish State of Israel was declared.

How different would it have been, had the people living in Palestine, were listened to and a secular democratic nation had been established instead?

Well never know.


Jim

Edited December 14, 2009 by JimR-OCDS

[Antigonos]

[quote name='JimR-OCDS' date='14 December 2009 - 09:59 PM' timestamp='1260817194' post='2020440']
The establishment of the Jewish State of Israel was a disaster from the beginning.

First off, the majority of the people living in the land known as Palestine, Jews, Christians and Muslims,
wanted a secular state, with a democratically elected representative form of government.

The Zionist on the other hand, made up mostly of Jews from Europe and the USA, demanded a Jewish state, and even drew up lines of petition, splitting villages and other owned property inhabited by Arabs.

What seems to be kept secret to Americans, is the amount of terrorist acts the Zionist committed, prior to 1948.

Between blowing up the King David Hotel, which killed over 80 British soldiers and other atrocities,
they spread fear and distrust among the residents inside Palestine, which would lead to all out violence as they declared the petition zone a State of Israel.

One atrocity which help feed the distrust of the Zionists, happened between 9 and 11 April 1948, where over 100 Arab townspeople were massacred by Jewish paramilitaries in Deir Yassin near Jerusalem in the British Mandate of Palestine.

In 1948 when the Arab nations attacked the newly declared state of Israel, Palestinian civilians fled their homes, some in order to get out of the way of the on coming Israeli Army and others were driven out of their homes at gun point by Israeli soldiers. These people thought that once the shooting stopped, they would be able to return to their homes. However, such was not the case. Hundreds of thousands were driven out by Israeli forces, some being placed on buses, and sent out into the desert areas of Gaza and the West Bank, which to this day, serve as refugee camps. Jews from Europe took over the homes of those Palestinians, being told by the Israeli government, that the houses were merely abandoned.

Such was not the case and since then, the people driven out of their homes, have been seeking to return to them, but it has not and will never happen.

Since then, we now have generations of dislocated and dispositioned people, who only seek justice.

Of course the radical terrorist group, The Muslim Brotherhood, jumped right into the cause and helped Hamas become a thorn in the side of those who seek peace, especially those who advocate a separate Palestinians state. Their goal, total destruction of the state of Israel, which will never happen.

So, here we the rest of the world, have been stuck with this perpetual violence ever since 1948, when the Jewish State of Israel was declared.

How different would it have been, had the people living in Palestine, were listened to and a secular democratic nation had been established instead?

Well never know.


Jim
[/quote]

I regret, Jim, that about 80% of your post is factually wrong. But I can see that you do not understand that Judaism is the religion of the Jewish PEOPLE. Put 10 Christians in a room and ask them why they define themselves as Christians, and they will begin their answers with "I believe...". Ask 10 Jews the same question and they will say "I was born Jewish". Abba Eban came closest when he said that Judaism is a civilization.

When I have the time, I will refute your assertions paragraph by paragraph. However, I think one has to make a distinction between politics and religion here. Israel IS a secular, political entity. Slightly more than 20% of its citizens are not Jewish. Is the US a secular or a Christian country because most of its citizens adhere to some form of the Christian religion? The State religion of the UK is the Anglican Church -- does anyone call the UK anything but secular in its politics, however?

Whenever enemies of Israel want to "score a point" they mention Deir Yassin. It was an unforgiveable incident. At the time 650,000 Israelis were facing all the millions of all the Arab states surrounding them who had vowed to exterminate the Jewish State, indeed had begun attacking even before the UN partition vote was an hour old.

Go on, let's hear about all the other incidents where Jews committed atrocities against the Arabs. You can't count them on the fingers of one hand. Whereas the Israelis are today STILL fighting their war of independence 60 years after the State of Israel was founded. Only yesterday a woman was stabbed and a rocket launched against an Israeli city. Let's talk about what the "Palestinian" suicide bombers did to Israeli women and children, not Israeli soldiers, during the two intifadas.

I notice you do not even mention what happened to those Jews who did not flee Moslem countries between 1948-1951. Over 800,000 were forced to leave, literally overnight in many cases, and their property in their native countries was grabbed by the Moslems.

[Hassan]

[quote name='Antigonos' date='15 December 2009 - 01:14 AM' timestamp='1260857654' post='2020846']


Go on, let's hear about all the other incidents where Jews committed atrocities against the Arabs. You can't count them on the fingers of one hand. Whereas the Israelis are today STILL fighting their war of independence 60 years after the State of Israel was founded. Only yesterday a woman was stabbed and a rocket launched against an Israeli city. Let's talk about what the "Palestinian" suicide bombers did to Israeli women and children, not Israeli soldiers, during the two intifadas.
[/quote]


Well. Do you count Shaba and Shatila as one incident or two? Are the illegal settlements that rob Palestinians of their land one large offense against the Palestinians or an aggregate of countless individual offenses? How about the recent findings of the UN regarding Israel's illegal and negligent actions during the 2009 incursion into Gaza? What about the forced displacement of Palestinian civilians during the 1948 war? The countless offenses committed regularly in the Occupied Territories?

[JimR-OCDS]

Antigonos'

[quote]
I regret, Jim, that about 80% of your post is factually wrong.
[/quote]

But you can't show it is. [img]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/public/style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif[/img]

[quote]
Israel IS a secular, political entity.
[/quote]

Wrong. Israel is a Jewish State. In fact, Eastern European Jews who converted to Christianity and
immigrated to Israel, were denied citizenship because they stated on their application, that their
religion was anything but Jewish. Only Jews immigrating to Israel, can become citizens there.

[/quote]
Slightly more than 20% of its citizens are not Jewish.
[/quote]

Those citizens were those Arabs who were there before the state of Israel was established. Under the UN resolution, they were given citizenship, however, they can not run for higher public office in the Israeli Government. Only Jewish citizens can hold these positions.

Also, the percentage of non-Jewish people living in what is now Israel, has dropped because of forced
exile, or voluntary exile. Christians in Israel counted for 37% of the population back in 1948. Today its about 2%. They didn't leave just because of Hamas, they left because of the 2nd class status they received from the Israeli government.

[/quote]
Is the US a secular or a Christian country because most of its citizens adhere to some form of the Christian religion?
[/quote]

The US was never established as a Christian nation. Israel was established as a Jewish nation. Its what Zionism is all about.


[quote]
Whenever enemies of Israel want to "score a point" they mention Deir Yassin. It was an unforgiveable incident. At the time 650,000 Israelis were facing all the millions of all the Arab states surrounding them who had vowed to exterminate the Jewish State, indeed had begun attacking even before the UN partition vote was an hour old.
[/quote]

Zionist terrorist acts such as Deir Yassin, began before the Arab nations attacked in 1948, when the Zionist declared their independence and set up the state of Israel. After acts like Deir Yassin, the population of non-Jews living in Palestine, feared the on coming Jewish forces, and fled for their lives, hoping that the UN would bring about a resolution that would allow them to return to their homes. It never happened, and those people along with subsquent generations, have been living in exhile in Gaza and the West Bank. However, ever there, the Jewish settelers, with the aid of the Israeli Army, have driven many into Lebanon or into the exhile cities in Gaza.

[quote]
Go on, let's hear about all the other incidents where Jews committed atrocities against the Arabs.
[/quote]

[color="#ff0000"]August 20, 1937 - June 29, 1939.[/color] During this period, the Zionists carried out a series of attacks against Arab buses, resulting in the death of 24 persons and wounding 25 others.

[color="red"]November 25, 1940.[/color] S.S.Patria was blown up by Jewish terrorists in Haifa harbour, killing 268 illegal Jewish immigrants (see below).

[color="red"]November 6, 1944.[/color] Zionist terrorists of the Stern Gang assassinated the British Minister Resident in the Middle East, Lord Moyne, in Cairo.

[color="red"]July 22, 1946.[/color] Zionist terrorists blew up the King David Hotel in Jerusalem, which housed the central offices of the civilian administration of the government of Palestine, killing or injuring more than 200 persons. The Irgun officially claimed responsibility for the incident, but subsequent evidence indicated that both the Haganah and the Jewish Agency were involved.

[color="red"]October 1, 1946.[/color] The British Embassy in Rome was badly damaged by bomb explosions, for which Irgun claimed responsibility.

[color="red"]June 1947.[/color] Letters sent to British Cabinet Ministers were found to contain bombs.

[color="red"]September 3, 1947.[/color] A postal bomb addressed to the British War Office exploded in the post office sorting room in London, injuring 2 persons. It was attributed to Irgun or Stern Gangs. (The Sunday Times, Sept. 24, 1972, p.8)

[color="red"]December 11, 1947.[/color] Six Arabs were killed and 30 wounded when bombs were thrown from Jewish trucks at Arab buses in Haifa; 12 Arabs were killed and others injured in an attack by armed Zionists on an Arab coastal village near Haifa.

[color="red"]December 13,1947.[/color] Zionist terrorists, believed to be members of Irgun Zvai Leumi, killed 18 Arabs and wounded nearly 60 in Jerusalem, Jaffa and Lydda areas. In Jerusalem, bombs were thrown in an Arab market-place near the Damascus Gate; in Jaffa, bombs were thrown into an Arab cafe; in the Arab village of Al Abbasya, near Lydda, 12 Arabs were killed in an attack with mortars and automatic weapons.

[color="red"]December 19, 1947.[/color] Haganah terrorists attacked an Arab village near Safad, blowing up two houses, in the ruins of which were found the bodies of 10 Arabs, including 5 children. Haganah admitted responsibility for the attack.

[color="red"]December 29, 1947.[/color] Two British constables and 11 Arabs were killed and 32 Arabs injured, at the Damascus Gate in Jerusalem when Irgun members threw a bomb from a taxi.

[color="red"]December 30,1947.[/color] A mixed force of the Zionist Palmach and the "Carmel Brigade" attacked the village of Balad al Sheikh, killing more than 60 Arabs.

[color="red"]1947 -- 1948.[/color] Over 700,000 Palestinian Arabs were uprooted from their homes and land, and forced to live in refugee camps on Israel's borders. They have been denied the right to return to their homes. They have been refused compensation for their homes, orchards, farms and other property stolen from them by the Israeli government. After their expulsion, the "Israeli Forces" totally obliterated (usually by bulldozing) 385 Arab villages and towns, out of a total of 475. Commonly, Israeli villages were built on the remaining rubble.

[color="red"]January 1, 1948.[/color] Haganah terrorists attacked a village on the slopes of Mount Carmel; 17 Arabs were killed and 33 wounded.

[color="red"]January 4, 1948.[/color] Haganah terrorists wearing British Army uniforms penetrated into the center of Jaffa and blew up the Serai (the old Turkish Government House) which was used as a headquarters of the Arab National Committee, killing more than 40 persons and wounding 98 others.

[color="red"]January 5, 1948.[/color] The Arab-owned Semiramis Hotel in Jerusalem was blown up, killing 20 persons, among them Viscount de Tapia, the Spanish Consul. Haganah admitted responsibility for this crime.

[color="red"]January 7, 1948.[/color] Seventeen Arabs were killed by a bomb at the Jaffa Gate in Jerusalem, 3 of them while trying to escape. Further casualties, including the murder of a British officer near Hebron, were reported from different parts of the country.

[color="red"]January 16, 1948.[/color] Zionists blew up three Arab buildings. In the first, 8 children between the ages of 18 months and 12 years, died.

[color="red"]December 13, 1947 -- February 10, 1948.[/color] Seven incidents of bomb-tossing at innocent Arab civilians in cafes and markets, killing 138 and wounding 271 others, During this period, there were 9 attacks on Arab buses. Zionists mined passenger trains on at least 4 occasions, killing 93 persons and wounding 161 others.

[color="red"]February 15, 1948.[/color] Haganah terrorists attacked an Arab village near Safad, blew up several houses, killing 11 Arabs, including 4 children..

[color="red"]March 3, 1948.[/color] Heavy damage was done to the Arab-owned Salam building in Haifa (a 7 story block of apartments and shops) by Zionists who drove an army lorry ( truck) up to the building and escaped before the detonation of 400 Ib. of explosives; casualties numbered 11 Arabs and 3 Armenians killed and 23 injured. The Stern Gang claimed responsibility for the incident.

[color="red"]March 22, 1948.[/color] A housing block in Iraq Street in Haifa was blown up killing 17 and injuring 100 others. Four members of the Stern Gang drove two truck-loads of explosives into the street and abandoned the vehicles before the explosion.

[color="red"]March 31, 1948.[/color] The Cairo-Haifa Express was mined, for the second time in a month, by an electronically-detonated land mine near Benyamina, killing 40 persons and wounding 60 others.

[color="red"]April 9, 1948.[/color] A combined force of Irgun Zvai Leumi and the Stern Gang, supported by the Palmach forces, captured the Arab village of Deir Yassin and killed more than 200 unarmed civilians, including countless women and children. Older men and young women were captured and paraded in chains in the Jewish Quarter of Jerusalem; 20 of the hostages were then shot in the quarry of Gevaat Shaul.

[color="red"]April 16, 1948.[/color] Zionists attacked the former British army camp at Tel Litvinsky, killing 90 Arabs there.

[color="red"]April 19, 1948.[/color] Fourteen Arabs were killed in a house in Tiberias, which was blown up by Zionist terrorists.

[color="red"]May 3, 1948.[/color] A book bomb addressed to a British Army officer, who had been stationed in Palestine exploded, killing his brother, Rex Farran.

[color="red"]May11, 1948.[/color] A letter bomb addressed to Sir Evelyn Barker, former Commanding Officer in Palestine, was detected in the nick of time by his wife.

[color="red"]April 25, 1948 -- May 13, 1948.[/color] Wholesale looting of Jaffa was carried out following armed attacks by Irgun and Haganah terrorists. They stripped and carried away everything they could, destroying what they could not take with them.
[url="http://guardian.150m.com/palestine/jewish-terrorism.htm"]http://guardian.150m...h-terrorism.htm[/url]

BTW, you can also read about the true history of the Israeli/Palestine conflict in two books.

"The Lemon Tree," by Sandy Tolan.

"IMAGE AND REALITY OF THE ISRAEL-PALESTINE CONFLICT" by Norm Finkelstein.

Jim

Edited December 15, 2009 by JimR-OCDS

[Antigonos]

[quote name='Hassan' date='15 December 2009 - 12:27 PM' timestamp='1260869220' post='2020874']
Well. Do you count Shaba and Shatila as one incident or two? Are the illegal settlements that rob Palestinians of their land one large offense against the Palestinians or an aggregate of countless individual offenses? How about the recent findings of the UN regarding Israel's illegal and negligent actions during the 2009 incursion into Gaza? What about the forced displacement of Palestinian civilians during the 1948 war? The countless offenses committed regularly in the Occupied Territories?
[/quote]


Right. One by one.

Sabra and Shatilla was not an Israeli action. It was Lebanese soldiers who stormed the camps, some of whom were co-religionists of those in the camps.

The West Bank was liberated from illegal seizure by Jordan, which captured the territory in 1948, in 1967. Judea and Samaria are the heartland of the Davidic Kingdom of Israel, and all the non-Jewish residents are still living there.

The UN report has been totally condemned as garbage and biased by the civilized world. Israeli soldiers only went in after [b][u]7200 documented rocket attacks against Israeli civilians[/u][/b] living inside Israel happened. Further, Israel did its utmost to prevent civilian casualties, but what can one do if Hamas uses human shields and apartment buildings as ammo dumps? BTW, the Hamas leadership saved itself by hiding in the basement of the Gaza City hospital, using patients on the floors above as hostages. This is documented.

The only persons who forced Arabs to leave their homes in 1948 were other Arabs, who threatened "Palestinians" with reprisals as collaborators if they remained, "when" they "reconquered" Israel. This is documented.

What atrocities? Do you know that maternal mortality on the West Bank has declined 68% since Israel took over the administration? That the per capita income of the non-Jewish residents is several times what it was between 1948-1967? That more "Palestinians" have been killed by other "Palestinians" than all the casualties they caused Israel since 1967?

Do you know that the "warlord" of Jericho, Rajoub Jibril, likes to kidnap rich "Palestinians" for ransom, which is why every month several hundred "Palestinians" apply for Israeli citizenship because that gives them some protection?

Do you know that, in spite of getting huge sums of money from the EU, nearly all of which goes either for arms or into the pockets of the corrupt leaders of both the PA and Hamas, Israel supplies Gaza with food, medical supplies, electricity and water? That the EU is actually paying for the private army Hamas is now using against its own people?

Do you know that farmers in the PA actually choose to market their produce through Israel if they can because they get better prices for it? Whenever European countries think to "punish" Israel, they are punishing the "Palestinians" whose "side" they are mistakenly getting [there is a big problem with the quality, however, and a great deal doesn't meet EU standards]

Get your facts right.

[Hassan]

[quote name='Antigonos' date='15 December 2009 - 09:34 AM' timestamp='1260887651' post='2020908']
Right. One by one.

Sabra and Shatilla was not an Israeli action. It was Lebanese soldiers who stormed the camps, some of whom were co-religionists of those in the camps. [/QUOTE]

The militants who actually did the slaughtering were Christian Lebonese nationalists. Their slaughter was facilitated by the IDF, particularly with the assistance of Sharon.

[QUOTE]The West Bank was liberated from illegal seizure by Jordan, which captured the territory in 1948, in 1967. Judea and Samaria are the heartland of the Davidic Kingdom of Israel, and all the non-Jewish residents are still living there.[/QUOTE]

I don't care what Biblical kingdom was claimed to have existed there x thousands of years ago. The West Bank was not part of the Israeli state and I believe international law has a precedent regarding the inadmissibility of land taken the course of war conquered.

[QUOTE]The UN report has been totally condemned as garbage and biased by the civilized world.[/QUOTE]

By the civilized world you mean what? You and John Bolton?

[QUOTE]Israeli soldiers only went in after [b][u]7200 documented rocket attacks against Israeli civilians[/u][/b] living inside Israel happened. Further, Israel did its utmost to prevent civilian casualties, but what can one do if Hamas uses human shields and apartment buildings as ammo dumps? BTW, the Hamas leadership saved itself by hiding in the basement of the Gaza City hospital, using patients on the floors above as hostages. This is documented.[/QUOTE]

Documented byy who? Not that dastardly UN I hope.

[QUOTE]The only persons who forced Arabs to leave their homes in 1948 were other Arabs, who threatened "Palestinians" with reprisals as collaborators if they remained, "when" they "reconquered" Israel. This is documented.[/QUOTE]

You know, you saying that x is documented doesn't mean it is documented. Benny Morris published internal IDF reports which actually did document the forced expulsion of Palestinians by Israeli forces. You can look that up either in Dr. Morris' article or "Broadcasts" by Christopher Hitchens.

[QUOTE]What atrocities? Do you know that maternal mortality on the West Bank has declined 68% since Israel took over the administration? That the per capita income of the non-Jewish residents is several times what it was between 1948-1967? That more "Palestinians" have been killed by other "Palestinians" than all the casualties they caused Israel since 1967?

now that the "warlord" of Jericho, Rajoub Jibril, likes to kidnap rich "Palestinians" for ransom, which is why every month several hundred "Palestinians" apply for Israeli citizenship because that gives them some protection?

Do you know that, in spite of getting huge sums of money from the EU, nearly all of which goes either for arms or into the pockets of the corrupt leaders of both the PA and Hamas, Israel supplies Gaza with food, medical supplies, electricity and water? That the EU is actually paying for the private army Hamas is now using against its own people?

Do you know that farmers in the PA actually choose to market their produce through Israel if they can because they get better prices for it? Whenever European countries think to "punish" Israel, they are punishing the "Palestinians" whose "side" they are mistakenly getting [there is a big problem with the quality, however, and a great deal doesn't meet EU standards]

Get your facts right.
[/quote]

What the hell does your slipshod collection of various 'facts' of the day have to do with the price of tea in flippin China?

Throwing out a random assortment of claims regarding the positive influence of the Israeli occupation does not cancel out the negative aspects. Let's grant, purely for the sake of argument, that every generalized claim you've made is of the most pristine truth. That doesn't mean the various abusive and illegal actions Israel subjects the Palestinians to under the Occupation suddenly disappears. If you want to refute actual charges I make fine. If you want to admit the harsh reality of abuses and oppression suffered by Palestinians under the Israeli occupation, but insist that the net benefit of the Israeli occupation is an overall good then that's fine. But throwing out unsupported claims with no coherent, contextualizing argument is worthless.