The State Of Israel

[Winchester]

[url="http://www.aish.com/jw/me/78624737.html"]Another view.[/url]

You should probably only post a quarter bajillion so you don't overload the site.

[Winchester]

[quote name='extempers' date='12 December 2009 - 11:02 PM' timestamp='1260676927' post='2019508']
And you are the only one that knows Israelis?
You would be surprised how many Israelis are against the oppression and occupation of Palestinians, but they remain a large minority under the control of a hawkish government.[/quote]
No, I probably wouldn't be.

[quote]
But I'm not here to debate Israel. The information is available for everyone who looks for it.[/quote]
I have. I disagree. And I supported the Serbs when they attacked UN safehavens that were being used by their enemies to organize attacks.
[quote]
Pardon my hysterics.
[/quote]
Me too.

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='extempers' date='12 December 2009 - 10:41 PM' timestamp='1260675667' post='2019496']
I'm scared to even ask for your sources. I keep up with the anti-islamic, anti-arab and kill the Palestinian arguments and I've never heard this.
[/quote]

The source for Hamas legalizing crucifixion is the Al Arabiya website: http://www.alarabiya.net/articles/2008/12/24/62699.html

The Source that Mein Kampf is a best seller in Islamic Nations is [url="http://www.matthiaskuentzel.de/contents/the-booksellers-of-tehran"]The Wall Street Journal[/url], [url="http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2005/mar/29/turkey.books"]The Guardian[/url] and [url="http://www.nationalreview.com/29july02/pryce-jones072902.asp"]National Review.[/url]


Link fixed.

Edited December 13, 2009 by KnightofChrist

[extempers]

You keep posting from aish.com
I really don't want to get into this, I'm sure there are many Catholics on here that stand for truth.
God willing my last post on here...

Btw, I think its safe to assume the human rights founder, a zionist, would object to its current Jewish leader calling out
Israel for obvious war crimes.

Civilians as shields
http://www.csmonitor.com/2007/0309/p99s01-duts.html
http://www.btselem.org/english/Human_Shields/20060720_Human_Shields_in_Beit_Hanun.asp
http://www.adalah.org/eng/humanshields.php


Illegal detention without trial
http://www.btselem.org/english/press_releases/20091014.asp

Rabbi leader calls for annihilation of Arabs
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/1270038.stm


5 myths that sanction Israel's wars
http://www.antiwar.com/cook/?articleid=9407


Israeli genocide
http://www.mediamonitors.net/francis7.html


Israeli Jewish edict to kill "enemies children"
http://sabbah.biz/mt/archives/2009/11/13/kill-enemy-children-jewish-edict/#more-4974


Israeli wars planned before any soldier kidnapping
http://www.thesimon.com/magazine/articles/canon_fodder/01196_it_time_stand_against_israel.html


Jews against Zionism open letter to Pr. Obama
http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com/news/currentarticle.cfm?id=175


Another jewish movement
http://www.jewsnotzionists.org/

One more
http://www.nkusa.org/

Er one more
http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/jews_against_zionism.html

Israeli war crimes in Gaza massacre
http://tpmcafe.talkingpointsmemo.com/2009/09/15/international_investigation_finds_there_were_war_c/

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='extempers' date='12 December 2009 - 11:25 PM' timestamp='1260678350' post='2019520']
You keep posting from aish.com
[/quote]


No that is not the site I sourced from, nor is the site I found the sources.

But your respose begs the question, is the Al Arabiya, a pro-islamic newspaper, The Wall Street Journal, The Guardian and National Review are all in a conspiracy of some kind with aish.com?

[Hussain]

I read Arabic, couldn't find even the word crucifixion on that webpage. Are you sure you got the right source? I even google translated it, just to be sure, couldn't find the word crucifixion, cross, or anything of that sort.

[Winchester]

Yes. I don't google and accept what comes up. I find something reliable (I obviously disagree with their theology) and I go with that. Claims about attacking civilians seem to turn out to be bunkum every stinking time.

Allegations of human shields. As opposed to bodies of soldiers alongside bodies of schoolchildren and bombers who blow themselves up in public. Depending on the nature of a raid, soldiers do permit occupants to lead them around. Certainly a ZIONIST SOLDIER would not be telling the truth. We are supposed to accept the other people at face value, so long as they are not ZIONIST OPPRESSORS. I have no doubt Israeli soldiers are not perfect. A soldier attacked amongst civilians and remaining in his position is not the same as launching an attack from a school occupied by children.

Oohh, articles that cite blogs, which are certainly reliable. They're not little editorials published without fact-checking. They are factual articles.

Yeah, kids put messages on bombs. If I was a daily target of terrorists, I'd want to sign some bombs, too.

Do you really think there are no articles to match yours? I thought the ZIONIST OPPRESSORS were powerful. Shouldn't they be able to control all sources of information? Perhaps the Protocols need updating, eh?

So there are Jews who oppose Israel. There are Catholics who oppose the pope. There are muslims who dig on swine.

[KnightofChrist]

[url="http://newsmax.com/International/Hamas-bombs-Gaza-Israel/2009/01/09/id/327583"]Hamas Reinstates Crucifixions of Christians[/url]
Friday, 09 Jan 2009 05:05 PM
Article Font Size

By: Nicole Jansezian

While the world focused on Hamas militants launching rockets from Gaza at southern Israel, the terrorist organization also voted quietly to implement Islamic law in the Gaza Strip, including crucifixion of Christians, according to reports in the Arabic press.

The traditional Muslim criminal code, known as Sharia law, includes penalties such as amputation of limbs for stealing and the death penalty, including crucifixion, for actions Hamas deems detrimental to “Palestinian interests,” including collaborating with Israel.

The new law was reported on the Al-Arabiya Web site and in the London-based Saudi-owned newspaper Al-Hayat, which wrote that the implementation of Sharia law has “brought criticism and concern from human rights organizations in the Gaza Strip.”

But the media scarcely took notice when the decision was reported during the Christian holidays as fighting between Hamas and Israel escalated in late December.

“Hamas’ endorsement of nailing enemies of Islam to crosses came at the same time it renewed its jihad,” Jerusalem Post columnist Caroline Glick wrote on Dec. 26. “Here, too, Hamas wanted to make sure that Christians didn’t feel neglected as its fighters launched missiles at Jewish day care centers and schools.”

Christians are a minority in Gaza, numbering fewer than 2,000 residents among 1.6 million in the Strip. After Hamas came to power, the Islamic group began enforcing sharia law more strictly, though not officially. Christians were the first to feel the squeeze. Some Christian men felt compelled to grow beards and women donned head scarves to downplay their identities as non-Muslims.

Sharia law is implemented fully in some nations, including Iran and Saudi Arabia. When Palestinian voters elected Hamas in 2006, organization spokesman Hamed Bitawi declared: “The Quran is our constitution, Muhammad is our prophet, jihad is our path, and dying as martyrs for the sake of Allah is our biggest wish.”

Palestinian officials in Gaza denied the adoption of Islamic law. However, Palestinian Media Watch, an organization that monitors the Arab press, says the group is lying.

“Contrary to today’s denials, official Hamas leaders have proudly announced in the Hamas-run media in the last two months that this Islamic penal code was being prepared,” the media watchdog said. “Indeed, senior Hamas leaders went so far as to say that when these laws are implemented, they will have force not only in Gaza but also in the West Bank.”

Media Watch also noted that Hamas newspaper Al-Rissala reported, “The Bureau of Islamic Law is preparing a penal code in order to implement Sharia-Islamic Law.”

Hamas has financial backing from Iran, which supplies the group with rockets and weapons used to attack Israel. Despite espousing separate branches of Islam — Hamas is Sunni; Iran is Shiite — the organization shares the expressed wish of Iran President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad to wipe out Israel. The Hamas charter states: “Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it.”

Israel withdrew unilaterally, both residents and soldiers, from the Gaza Strip in 2005, leaving the territory entirely under Palestinian jurisdiction. Then, in a coup in 2007, Hamas took over the Gaza Strip, ousting its rival party Fatah and assassinating Fatah loyalists. Since then, rocket fire launched at Israel’s southern communities increased. In December, a six-month period of calm collapsed and led to Israel’s Operation Cast Lead, the bombings and attacks against Hamas militants in Gaza in retaliation for bombings of Israel.

[HisChildForever]

Yes and yes. Long live Israel.

[Maggyie]

The Israelis have done plenty of nasty things over the years, no question. At our parish around Chrismtas time we have Palestinian Catholics come to us to sell their wares, because ever since the wall was built their ability to provide for their families has evaporated along with the tourists. If we want a Catholic presence in the Holy Land, we have to help them and oppose projects like the wall etc. This besides all of the horrific human rights abuses. Many, many Jews are appalled by this and many of the Orthodox are anti-zionist.

But the response from the Palestinians is pretty much equivalent. These are the people who elected a terrorist organization as their government. What exactly can you say to people like that? There isn't much. That doesn't justify all the oppression, of course, but what do the Palestinians expect to happen when they blow up a nursery school every decade?

One party has to unilaterally choose to stop being wicked. To choose to do the right thing even though there are no guarantees that doing the right thing will get them a victory. Neither side has Jesus so I am not hopeful they will ever do it.

[Hussain]

[url="http://www.alarabiya.net/articles/2009/12/12/93936.html"]Palestinian Christians call on Westerners to reject Zionism[/url]





Hundreds of Jewish settlers angry at reducedsettlement building burned pages of Islam's holy book in an attack on aWest Bank mosque as Palestinian Christians called for sanctions on"evil" Israel and rejected Christian Zionism, press reports saidSaturday.

Burned pages of the Quran lay scattered on the mosque's torched carpetas Israelis from the settlement of Tappuah spray painted in largeHebrew letters "Get ready to pay the price," a statement referring to arecent government decision to curb settlement building, only in theWest Bank and for only 10 months.

Securityforces used teargas to disperse hundreds of furious settlers in theWest Bank city of Yasuf, where hardline settlers call for a "price tag"policy under which they target Palestinians in retaliation for anyIsraeli government measure they see as threatening Jewish settlements.

Settler attacks on Palestinians is a common occurrence and last week ahouse and three vehicles were set on fire in another northern West Bankvillage. The owner of the house told police he saw three Jewishsettlers start the fires.

Israeli Defense Minister Ehud Barak sharply denounced the attack.

"This is an extreme act meant to harm the government's attempts toadvance the process for Israel's future," his office quoted him assaying.


[img]http://www.alarabiya.net/img/quote_start_small.gif[/img] The aggression against the Palestinian people which is the Israelioccupation, is an evil that must be resisted. It is an evil and a sinthat must be resisted and removed[img]http://www.alarabiya.net/img/quote_end_small.gif[/img]
Group statement "Evil" Israel

Meanwhilein the West Bank city of Bethlehem Christians from all denominationscalled for international sanctions on Israel for its "evil" occupationand urged Western Christians to reject Zionism.

"The aggression against the Palestinian people which is the Israelioccupation, is an evil that must be resisted. It is an evil and a sinthat must be resisted and removed," the Palestinains Ma'an news agencyquoted a released document as stating.

"Primary responsibility for this rests with the Palestinians themselvessuffering occupation. Christian love invites us to resist it," thedocument added.

The group, who call themselves the Palestine Kairos Initiative, modeledafter black South Africa's 1985 Kairos Document, called on theinternational community to begin "a system of economic sanctions andboycott to be applied against Israel," and to "engage in divestment andin an economic and commercial boycott of everything produced by theoccupation."

"These advocacy campaigns must be carried out with courage, openlysincerely proclaiming that their object is not revenge but rather toput an end to the existing evil, liberating both the perpetrators andthe victims of injustice."


[img]http://www.alarabiya.net/img/quote_start_small.gif[/img] Those who use the Bible to threaten our existence as Christian andMuslim Palestinians, we renew our faith in God because we know that theword of God can not be the source of our destruction[img]http://www.alarabiya.net/img/quote_end_small.gif[/img]
Group statement Faith in God

Thegroup also specifically addressed Chrisitians living in the west whosupport Zionism and slammed them for "trying to attach a biblical andtheological legitimacy to the infringement of our rights." Theirinterpretation of scripture has "become a menace to our very existence.... The 'good news' in the Gospel itself has become 'a harbinger ofdeath' for us."

The group said misinterpretations of the holy scriptures was threatening the Palestinian people's existence.

"Those who use the Bible to threaten our existence as Christian andMuslim Palestinians, we renew our faith in God because we know that theword of God can not be the source of our destruction."

"We call on these theologians to deepen their reflection on the Word ofGod and to rectify their interpretations so that they might see in theWord of God a source of life for all peoples."

According to Ma'an the Palestine Kairos Initiative was first proposedin Jordan leading religious figures from all denominations, includingLutherians, Greek Orthodox and Baptists.

"After sitting and theologically reflecting on the situation, theinjustice of the situation, we came up with this document," Kairosspokesman Ranjan Solomon told Ma'an. "Palestinians perceive this as amoment of truth."

[Hussain]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' date='13 December 2009 - 12:51 AM' timestamp='1260679883' post='2019529']
[url="http://newsmax.com/International/Hamas-bombs-Gaza-Israel/2009/01/09/id/327583"]Hamas Reinstates Crucifixions of Christians[/url]
Friday, 09 Jan 2009 05:05 PM
Article Font Size

By: Nicole Jansezian

While the world focused on Hamas militants launching rockets from Gaza at southern Israel, the terrorist organization also voted quietly to implement Islamic law in the Gaza Strip, including crucifixion of Christians, according to reports in the Arabic press.

The traditional Muslim criminal code, known as Sharia law, includes penalties such as amputation of limbs for stealing and the death penalty, including crucifixion, for actions Hamas deems detrimental to "Palestinian interests," including collaborating with Israel.

The new law was reported on the Al-Arabiya Web site and in the London-based Saudi-owned newspaper Al-Hayat, which wrote that the implementation of Sharia law has "brought criticism and concern from human rights organizations in the Gaza Strip."

But the media scarcely took notice when the decision was reported during the Christian holidays as fighting between Hamas and Israel escalated in late December.

"Hamas' endorsement of nailing enemies of Islam to crosses came at the same time it renewed its jihad," Jerusalem Post columnist Caroline Glick wrote on Dec. 26. "Here, too, Hamas wanted to make sure that Christians didn't feel neglected as its fighters launched missiles at Jewish day care centers and schools."

Christians are a minority in Gaza, numbering fewer than 2,000 residents among 1.6 million in the Strip. After Hamas came to power, the Islamic group began enforcing sharia law more strictly, though not officially. Christians were the first to feel the squeeze. Some Christian men felt compelled to grow beards and women donned head scarves to downplay their identities as non-Muslims.

Sharia law is implemented fully in some nations, including Iran and Saudi Arabia. When Palestinian voters elected Hamas in 2006, organization spokesman Hamed Bitawi declared: "The Quran is our constitution, Muhammad is our prophet, jihad is our path, and dying as martyrs for the sake of Allah is our biggest wish."

Palestinian officials in Gaza denied the adoption of Islamic law. However, Palestinian Media Watch, an organization that monitors the Arab press, says the group is lying.

"Contrary to today's denials, official Hamas leaders have proudly announced in the Hamas-run media in the last two months that this Islamic penal code was being prepared," the media watchdog said. "Indeed, senior Hamas leaders went so far as to say that when these laws are implemented, they will have force not only in Gaza but also in the West Bank."

Media Watch also noted that Hamas newspaper Al-Rissala reported, "The Bureau of Islamic Law is preparing a penal code in order to implement Sharia-Islamic Law."

Hamas has financial backing from Iran, which supplies the group with rockets and weapons used to attack Israel. Despite espousing separate branches of Islam — Hamas is Sunni; Iran is Shiite — the organization shares the expressed wish of Iran President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad to wipe out Israel. The Hamas charter states: "Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it."

Israel withdrew unilaterally, both residents and soldiers, from the Gaza Strip in 2005, leaving the territory entirely under Palestinian jurisdiction. Then, in a coup in 2007, Hamas took over the Gaza Strip, ousting its rival party Fatah and assassinating Fatah loyalists. Since then, rocket fire launched at Israel's southern communities increased. In December, a six-month period of calm collapsed and led to Israel's Operation Cast Lead, the bombings and attacks against Hamas militants in Gaza in retaliation for bombings of Israel.
[/quote]

I found it weird that the main article this was based on did not contain the story of crucifixion. Do you have any other sources on this? I'm not trying to deny this, just looking for the bigger picture.

[Antigonos]

[quote name='aalpha1989' date='13 December 2009 - 03:10 AM' timestamp='1260663028' post='2019412']
One can be against the State of Israel and also against the State of Palestine. The Vatican is historically anti-zionist (NOT anti-semitic). The State of Israel has very little to do with the religion of Judaeism anyway, and most orthodox Jews are against the State because it is completely secular.
[/quote]

On this subject I am an authority [never mind why]. The State of Israel is a modern, democratic entity which provides a refuge to all Jews [according to Jewish Law, a Jew is someone born to a Jewish mother, which is not a statement of religious belief at all] since it is the Jewish ancestral homeland for thousands of years before there was either "Palestine" or "Palestinians". The Law of Return also provides for certain categories of persons who are not Jewish under Jewish Law to obtain citizenship [Hitler's definition of Jewishness included a great many who were not Jewish under Jewish law]

I don't want to comment on whether the Vatican is "anti-Zionist" or "anti-semitic". At various times it has been both, at others, neither. The current Pope seems well-disposed toward Israel, although there are still glitches from time to time.

Orthodox Jews are most emphatically not against the State of Israel. Indeed, the majority of immigrants to Israel today from Western countries [UK, US, and France, mainly] are Orthodox. There is a very small [several hundreds only] extremist ultra-Orthodox group which opposes the existence of a secular state, but the vast majority of the ultra-Orthodox also support the State.

Israel is basically secular, but there are some exceptions. There is, for example, no civil marriage in Israel. The Ministry of Religion oversees the kosher standards of restaurants, and the national holidays, and day of rest, are based on Jewish holidays and the Sabbath, with Moslems allowed to take their own holidays off instead.

[Sternhauser]

[quote name='Winchester' date='12 December 2009 - 07:56 PM' timestamp='1260662201' post='2019396']
Yeah. Torture. Whatev.
[/quote]

Yeah. Torture.

[url="http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2000/feb/11/israel"]Israeli Government Report Admits Systematic Torture of Palestinians. [/url]

[url="http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2007/may/07/israel"]Israeli Human Rights Group: Palestinians 'Routinely Tortured' in Israeli Jails[/url]

~Sternhauser

Edited December 13, 2009 by Sternhauser

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='Hussain' date='13 December 2009 - 12:55 AM' timestamp='1260683707' post='2019562']
I found it weird that the main article this was based on did not contain the story of crucifixion. Do you have any other sources on this? I'm not trying to deny this, just looking for the bigger picture.
[/quote]

The paper tells of the law passed by Hamas but the writer did not mention crucifixion. But other newspapers do when speaking of the same law.


[url="http://europenews.dk/en/node/17769"]Hamas legalizes crucifixion[/url]

Caroline Glick December 26 2008

Both Iran and its Hamas proxy in Gaza have been busy this Christmas week showing Christendom just what they think of it. But no one seems to have noticed.

On Tuesday, Hamas legislators marked the Christmas season by passing a Shari'a criminal code for the Palestinian Authority. Among other things, it legalizes crucifixion.

Hamas's endorsement of nailing enemies of Islam to crosses came at the same time it renewed its jihad. Here, too, Hamas wanted to make sure that Christians didn't feel neglected as its fighters launched missiles at Jewish day care centers and schools. So on Wednesday, Hamas lobbed a mortar shell at the Erez crossing point into Israel just as a group of Gazan Christians were standing on line waiting to travel to Bethlehem for Christmas.

While Hamas joyously renewed its jihad against Jews and Christians, its overlords in Iran also basked in jihadist triumphalism. The source of Teheran's sense of ascendancy this week was Britain's Channel 4 network's decision to request that Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad give a special Christmas Day address to the British people.

Ahmadinejad's speech was supposed to be a response to Queen Elizabeth II's traditional Christmas Day address to her subjects. That is, Channel 4 presented his message as a reasonable counterpoint to the Christmas greetings of the head of the Church of England.

Channel 4 justified its move by proclaiming that it was providing a public service. As a spokesman told The Jerusalem Post, "We're offering [Ahmadinejad] the chance to speak for himself, which people in the West don't often get the chance to see."

While that sounds reasonable, the fact is that Westerners see Ahmadinejad speaking for himself all the time. They saw him at the UN two years in a row as he called for the countries of the world to submit to Islam; claimed that Iran's nuclear weapons program is divinely inspired; and castigated Jews as subhuman menaces to humanity.

They saw him gather leading anti-Semites from all over the world at his Holocaust denial conference.

They heard him speak in his own words when he called for Israel to be "wiped off the map."

And of course, over the years Ahmadinejad has often communicated directly to the British people. For instance, in 2007 he received unlimited airtime on UK television as he paraded kidnapped British sailors and marines in front of television cameras; forced them to make videotaped "confessions" of their "crime" of entering Iranian territorial waters; and compelled them to grovel at his knee and thank him for "forgiving" them.

The British people listened to Ahmadinejad as he condemned Britain as a warmongering nation after its leaders had surrendered Basra to Iranian proxies. They heard him - speaking in his own voice - when he announced that in a gesture of Islamic mercy, he was freeing their humiliated sailors and marines in honor of Muhammad's birthday and Easter, and then called on all Britons to convert to Islam.

Yet as far as Channel 4 is concerned, Ahmadinejad is still an unknown quantity for most Britons. So they asked him to address the nation on Christmas. And not surprisingly, in his address, he attacked their way of life and co-opted their Jewish savior, Jesus, saying, "If Christ was on earth today, undoubtedly he would stand with the people in opposition to bullying, ill-tempered and expansionist powers."

He then reiterated his call for non-Muslims to convert to Islam saying, "The solution to today's problems can be found in a return to the call of the divine prophets."

THE FACT of the matter is that Channel 4 is right. There is a great deal of ignorance in the West about what the likes of Ahmadinejad and his colleagues in Iran, Syria, Hizbullah and Hamas stand for. But this isn't their fault. They tell us every day that they seek the destruction of the Jews and the domination of the West in the name of Islam. And every day they take actions that they believe advance their goals.

The reason that the West remains ignorant of the views and goals of the likes of Hamas and Iran is not that the latter have hidden their views and goals. It is because the leading political leaders and foreign policy practitioners in the West refuse to listen to them and deny the significance of their actions. (...)