To The Non-Muslims

[extempers]

Hi all!
I hope everyone is doing well. These past and current discussions on Islam have been umm quite interesting
But we really need to talk.

For me, it is becoming more difficult to respond on this forum as questions are being posed in a rapid fire manner, and many of which are rhetorical as the answer and mindset have already been determined by the author, are being fired left and right and before the subject can even be closed, conclusions are made or another subject is opened randomly
I don't even know anymore where certain discussions are taking place, it's all over the place.

I'm not saying all the questions are like this, and I truly appreciate the other type of questions, but majority of the questions here fit my description.

I do get it, misplaced emotional outrage on what you've read/been told about Islam coupled with a need to show ideological dominance leads to these types of discussions. (Again not saying all).

But please, keep in mind, we are just regular people with lives outside of the internet.
We are not scholars nor could we even claim to be students of knowledge.
If you are really interested in any of the answers to these questions, then go, visit a mosque or talk to a real life imam, shaykh or scholar in person.
Online debates will not always make us smarter
In fact, I'd argue, it will make us more belligerent and arrogant in our claims and less tolerant and respectful, which are attributes both religions highly prize (although I'm sure someone's going to post some article showing that this really isn't the case about Islam!)

I spent hours inside the Catholic church by my house and have asked many questions to ministers of different Christian sects for my answers on Christianity.

Cannot you not do the same for Islam? (And no, learning doesn't end with one discussion) Or is there another motivation for asking these questions?
We are not going to be surprised or stumped by anything you say, we've heard this all before.


Also, I suggest posting more questions on MM as you will, hopefully, get more responses from the Muslims.
Many of our most knowledgeable Muslims on MM are completely abstaining from such discussions with you all after reading what has been said on PM about Islam along with their previous experiences with debating with Christians online.
They and Muslims in general don't see any benefit and they are sick of the atmosphere and prevailing "discourse" on Islam.

Go look at any major youtube video or newspaper article with a comment section that talks about Islam or Muslims. Majority of the posts/comments are non-stop attacks on Islam, copy/pastes from Robert Spencer and swear words with some fun racist, bigoted and xenophobic remarks. Half of them don't even make sense!

But if you come to MM and ask with sincerity of actually wanting to know the answer rather than trying stump us and putting a tally point next to the Catholic v. Muslim counter, God willing those people will take the time (yes it takes time and thought!) to answer.

I hope this makes sense and I haven't insulted anyone.
If this is the case then I truly apologize. The method of Prophet Muhammad (s) was not to debate, but to preach with goodness and show beautiful character and respect.

There is no point in any Muslim talking about Islam if we cannot hold on to the methods of our Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings upon him!)

God says: And tell My servants to say (to those that do not believe) that which is best. Indeed, Satan induces [dissension] among them. Indeed Satan is ever, to mankind, a clear enemy.
17:53

[mommas_boy]

[quote name='extempers' date='12 December 2009 - 04:51 PM' timestamp='1260654716' post='2019293']
God says: And tell My servants to say (to those that do not believe) that which is best. Indeed, Satan induces [dissension] among them. Indeed Satan is ever, to mankind, a clear enemy.
17:53
[/quote]

I was once told that aside from the name Lucifer, the Great Deceiver has two names:

devil -- (Gr.: diabolos) divider
satan -- (Hebrew: ha-Satan) accuser

I believe that in all discussions about matters of faith, it is critically important to remember these traits of the Enemy lest he rear his ugly head.

Edited December 12, 2009 by mommas_boy

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='mommas_boy' date='12 December 2009 - 05:01 PM' timestamp='1260655305' post='2019298']
I believe that in all ecumenical discussions, it is critically important to remember these traits of the Enemy lest he rear his ugly head.
[/quote]

"Ecumenical discussions" refers to discussions between Christians of different churches or ecclesial communities. "Inter-religious" discussions would be the correct term for discussions between Christians and non-Christians.

[mommas_boy]

[quote name='Resurrexi' date='12 December 2009 - 05:04 PM' timestamp='1260655441' post='2019300']
"Ecumenical discussions" refers to discussions between Christians of different churches or ecclesial communities. "Inter-religious" discussions would be the correct term for discussions between Christians and non-Christians.
[/quote]

Fixed it. :wink:

[extempers]

A couple weeks ago, we had a world famous Islamic scholar come to our school and give a talk to non-Muslims. I told him to expect major debate as leaders of the major religious organizations in the area were coming, even Christian Arabs! (We've had experience before with overzealous debaters.)
So he gave a talk in an hour that just put the room in awe regarding the complexity of the Qur'an and then opened the floor for any questions. I was waiting for the debate to start but 30 minutes later no one really said anything!
We then closed hoping people would approach him. A group of baptists took diligent notes and approached him for the "debate", but the speaker responded with such respect and with such knowledge, all their argument were crumpled in a few minutes.

After the talk, he, being from Texas, was surprised with the lack of debate.
I didn't really understand it either! But now it makes sense. It's much more difficult to claim Islam is x when you are speaking to an actual expert in Islam.
It is also even more difficulty to take on a nasty or emotional debating disposition when someone is giving you the exact opposite.

[MIKolbe]

[quote name='extempers' date='12 December 2009 - 05:51 PM' timestamp='1260654716' post='2019293']
Hi all!
I hope everyone is doing well. These past and current discussions on Islam have been umm quite interesting
But we really need to talk.

For me, it is becoming more difficult to respond on this forum as questions are being posed in a rapid fire manner, and many of which are rhetorical as the answer and mindset have already been determined by the author, are being fired left and right and before the subject can even be closed, conclusions are made or another subject is opened randomly
I don't even know anymore where certain discussions are taking place, it's all over the place.

I'm not saying all the questions are like this, and I truly appreciate the other type of questions, but majority of the questions here fit my description.

I do get it, misplaced emotional outrage on what you've read/been told about Islam coupled with a need to show ideological dominance leads to these types of discussions. (Again not saying all).

But please, keep in mind, we are just regular people with lives outside of the internet.
We are not scholars nor could we even claim to be students of knowledge.
If you are really interested in any of the answers to these questions, then go, visit a mosque or talk to a real life imam, shaykh or scholar in person.
Online debates will not always make us smarter
In fact, I'd argue, it will make us more belligerent and arrogant in our claims and less tolerant and respectful, which are attributes both religions highly prize (although I'm sure someone's going to post some article showing that this really isn't the case about Islam!)

I spent hours inside the Catholic church by my house and have asked many questions to ministers of different Christian sects for my answers on Christianity.

Cannot you not do the same for Islam? (And no, learning doesn't end with one discussion) Or is there another motivation for asking these questions?
We are not going to be surprised or stumped by anything you say, we've heard this all before.


Also, I suggest posting more questions on MM as you will, hopefully, get more responses from the Muslims.
Many of our most knowledgeable Muslims on MM are completely abstaining from such discussions with you all after reading what has been said on PM about Islam along with their previous experiences with debating with Christians online.
They and Muslims in general don't see any benefit and they are sick of the atmosphere and prevailing "discourse" on Islam.

Go look at any major youtube video or newspaper article with a comment section that talks about Islam or Muslims. Majority of the posts/comments are non-stop attacks on Islam, copy/pastes from Robert Spencer and swear words with some fun racist, bigoted and xenophobic remarks. Half of them don't even make sense!

But if you come to MM and ask with sincerity of actually wanting to know the answer rather than trying stump us and putting a tally point next to the Catholic v. Muslim counter, God willing those people will take the time (yes it takes time and thought!) to answer.

I hope this makes sense and I haven't insulted anyone.
If this is the case then I truly apologize. The method of Prophet Muhammad (s) was not to debate, but to preach with goodness and show beautiful character and respect.

There is no point in any Muslim talking about Islam if we cannot hold on to the methods of our Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings upon him!)

God says: And tell My servants to say (to those that do not believe) that which is best. Indeed, Satan induces [dissension] among them. Indeed Satan is ever, to mankind, a clear enemy.
17:53
[/quote]

ExTemp-

Thank you for that. I must admit some of what you say are things that we request of 'separated brethern' to do when questioning our faith. The 'rapid fire' comment hit home with me personally.

Archbishop Sheen said that there weren't 100 people who hated catholicism, but there were 100,000 who hated what they THOUGHT it was. I see this saying having some relevance here. some.

It is nice to know there is a 'real person' with a 'real life' beyond this ASCII facade, and perhaps this will help us all to temper our zeal with compassion. However, we find the ULTIMATE compassion, or charity, in truth itself. And we will preach this truth to the bitter end. And yes, sometimes the truth is rough, but that does not mean we have to be jerks about it, aggresively or passively.

The ultimate bottom line is I hope you, and your muslim friends, can be a recipient of the witness of the truth of Christ, and that His Holy Spirit enlighten your mind and heart, and transforms you and leads you to Truth.

Please know this is a sincerely hope. I hold no pride, nor am I trying to be superior in any way. But Christ is your savior. He died for us, and He loves you.

I cannot call myself Catholic and believe any differently.

Maybe instead of worrying about being right, we all should offer our Masses for our new friends. I mean, if we are strong enough to do that.

To my new and old friends-

May peace be upon you.

- MIKolbe

[extempers]

Thanks MlKOlbe, I appreciate the response.

We are here only to give the message. There is no compulsion in Islam so you are free to do what you will with the message, but we will continue to speak the truth until we die God willing

God and God alone is your Lord and you must turn to Him and Him alone. I hope and pray one day you will see God alone is your Creator and Jesus (as) is His servant and messenger.


I seriously suggest reading the 3rd chapter of the Qur'an to understand the Islamic perspective. I'm in awe how much there is to say in regarding the Christians.

http://quran.com/3


O People of the Scripture, come to a word that is equitable between us and you – that we will not worship except God and not associate anything with Him and not take one another as lords instead of God."

But if they turn away, then say, "Bear witness that we are Muslims [submitting to Him]

3:64


So if they argue with you, say, "I have submitted myself to Allah [in Islam], and [so have] those who follow me." And say to those who were given the Scripture and [to] the unlearned, "Have you submitted yourselves?" And if they submit [in Islam], they are rightly guided; but if they turn away – then upon you is only the [duty of] notification. And Allah is Seeing of [His] servants.


3:20

Edited December 12, 2009 by extempers

[Winchester]

All I know is I won't be happy until I stump you.