The Novus Ordo Missae

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='14 December 2009 - 02:13 PM' timestamp='1260818023' post='2020452']
Rexi probably means transliterated Hebrew words and expressions (e.g., amen, hallelujah, etc.).
[/quote]

[Socrates]

[quote name='JimR-OCDS' date='14 December 2009 - 02:45 PM' timestamp='1260819908' post='2020470']
So, if you think people would show up for Mass well dressed and reverent if we had the TLM, think again. It would be worse than ever.

Jim
[/quote]
Actually, having attended TLM in several different churches in different states, I must beg to differ.
In every TLM I've been to, people did in fact show up for Mass well dressed and reverent. Considerably more so than in many "Novus Ordo" masses. While I don't deny that they could occur, I have not seen any form of liturgical abuse or irreverence at a Traditional Latin Mass. Both the priests and congregations have been reverent and respectful.

I'm not a "rad trad," I don't consider NO masses invalid, I've seen some very beautiful and reverent NO masses, and I'm not so naive as to think that simply returning universally to TLM will automatically solve all the problems in the Church today.
However, your charge that if we had the TLM, "it would be worse than ever," is blatant nonsense. The TLM never completely went away; in fact the Pope has given the universal indult. And where the TLM is said things are not "worse than ever," but the liturgy and demeanor of priest and congregation are reverent.

I see the problem as being not so much the NO mass, as the common abuses of it. I think a return to reverence and proper form, whether in the TLM or a properly-said NO mass, will in fact have an all-around positive effect on the Church, and our Holy Father realizes this.

[JimR-OCDS]

Socrates

[quote]
Actually, having attended TLM in several different churches in different states, I must beg to differ.
In every TLM I've been to, people did in fact show up for Mass well dressed and reverent. Considerably more so than in many "Novus Ordo" masses.
[/quote]

When you attend the TLM in today's world, you're attending the extraordinary format, and those who attend, generally go out of their way to attend. They are not your normal Catholic attending Mass at their parish. People who go out of their way to enrich themselves spiritually, have a totally different attitude towards Mass than the general public.

The TLM closest to me is about a 20 minute drive, and its at 8AM. According to the Catholic Free Press, people attending Mass there, are driving as far away as 60 miles. Remember, this is an 8 AM Mass.

Like I said before, I attend a Catholic retreat at a monastery every year. The people who attend Mass there are not your average Catholics. They take their faith more serious than the average Catholic in today's Catholic parishes. The Mass as well as the Liturgy of the Hours, is the most reverent I've ever attended, and its all in English, even the chant which the monks sing.

However, make the TLM the norm where its the only format said in the parishes, and it would be a disaster, especially today where there isn't much tolerance for things that are difficult to understand.

Jim

Edited December 14, 2009 by JimR-OCDS

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='JimR-OCDS' date='14 December 2009 - 10:01 AM' timestamp='1260802914' post='2020233']
No, you wouldn't have the same experience, because the TLM isn't the norm, and has only just been allowed recently.[/quote]

Actually, according to Pope Benedict XVI, the 1962 Missal "was never juridically abrogated and, consequently, in principle, was always permitted." (Benedict XVI, Letter to Bishops accompanying [i]Summorum Pontificum[/i])


[quote name='JimR-OCDS' date='14 December 2009 - 10:01 AM' timestamp='1260802914' post='2020233']
In the days before Vatican II, there were abuses in the Mass, as much as there are today.[/quote]

Of course there were. Some examples of abuses in the Mass were saying the prayers too quickly, women singing the Propers, vernacular hymns at High Mass, and not bowing at the name of Jesus. These abuses in no way compare to abuses today.

[quote name='JimR-OCDS' date='14 December 2009 - 10:01 AM' timestamp='1260802914' post='2020233']
People sat in the pews and watched, many daydreaming, or some even sleeping. [/quote]

Doesn't sound any different from the way a lot of people behave at the Novus Ordo Mass today.

Edited December 14, 2009 by Resurrexi

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='JimR-OCDS' date='14 December 2009 - 03:36 PM' timestamp='1260826613' post='2020579']
Socrates



When you attend the TLM in today's world, you're attending the extraordinary format, and those who attend, generally go out of their way to attend. They are not your normal Catholic attending Mass at their parish. People who go out of their way to enrich themselves spiritually, have a totally different attitude towards Mass than the general public.

The TLM closest to me is about a 20 minute drive, and its at 8AM. According to the Catholic Free Press, people attending Mass there, are driving as far away as 60 miles. Remember, this is an 8 AM Mass.

Like I said before, I attend a Catholic retreat at a monastery every year. The people who attend Mass there are not your average Catholics. They take their faith more serious than the average Catholic in today's Catholic parishes. The Mass as well as the Liturgy of the Hours, is the most reverent I've ever attended, and its all in English, even the chant which the monks sing.

However, make the TLM the norm where its the only format said in the parishes, and it would be a disaster, especially today where there isn't much tolerance for things that are difficult to understand.

Jim
[/quote]
So hang on now...

The people who take their faith more seriously tend to be drawn towards the Extraordinary Form, yet the Ordinary Form is still better for Catholicism?

To use hyperbolic language (and please note that this is only for convenience, and does not imply value judgements), isn't it reasonable that the "best" go to the "best", while the "average" go to the "average"?

Edited December 14, 2009 by Nihil Obstat

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='14 December 2009 - 05:21 PM' timestamp='1260829304' post='2020622']
So hang on now...

The people who take their faith more seriously tend to be drawn towards the Extraordinary Form, yet the Ordinary Form is still better for Catholicism?

To use hyperbolic language (and please note that this is only for convenience, and does not imply value judgements), isn't it reasonable that the "best" go to the "best", while the "average" go to the "average"?
[/quote]

Action failed: You have reached your quota of positive votes for the day

[Crispy]

[quote name='Sacred Music Man' date='13 December 2009 - 12:33 AM' timestamp='1260678802' post='2019523']
Indeed. I think this would be the hardest part of allowing vernacular too. ...I'm also including the Divine Office in this discussion. Is that a fair addition?
[/quote]

I have to say that, despite my desire to preserve Latin in the liturgy in some way that is prudent and beneficial, I would be very unhappy if the Liturgy of the Hours was made to be exclusively in Latin. I'm sure some people catch on to Latin well, but I had a hard time learning it in college, and not much to show for it now (a short year later). If the entire breviary was only in Latin, that might be an impediment to my (hopeful) ordination to the priesthood. Short Latin prayers in the Mass, great, awesome. But 30-60 minutes daily of mandatory prayer only in Latin (lauds, vespers, office of readings, etc) would make "sanctifying the day" into a boring chore, since I am not fluent in the language.

[Socrates]

[quote name='JimR-OCDS' date='14 December 2009 - 04:36 PM' timestamp='1260826613' post='2020579']
Socrates



When you attend the TLM in today's world, you're attending the extraordinary format, and those who attend, generally go out of their way to attend. They are not your normal Catholic attending Mass at their parish. People who go out of their way to enrich themselves spiritually, have a totally different attitude towards Mass than the general public.

The TLM closest to me is about a 20 minute drive, and its at 8AM. According to the Catholic Free Press, people attending Mass there, are driving as far away as 60 miles. Remember, this is an 8 AM Mass.

Like I said before, I attend a Catholic retreat at a monastery every year. The people who attend Mass there are not your average Catholics. They take their faith more serious than the average Catholic in today's Catholic parishes. The Mass as well as the Liturgy of the Hours, is the most reverent I've ever attended, and its all in English, even the chant which the monks sing.[/quote]
This contradicts your earlier claim that the TLM is just attended by "conformists" rather than "faith-filled people."

[quote]However, make the TLM the norm where its the only format said in the parishes, and it would be a disaster, especially today where there isn't much tolerance for things that are difficult to understand.

Jim[/quote]
Yes, we can see how dumbing everything down has worked wonders.

If Catholics have really "spiritually evolved" so much over the past, this shouldn't be an issue.

Edited December 15, 2009 by Socrates

[Laudate_Dominum]

Hey, cool, you can click and see who voted for what.

SMM, what the heck are you doing voting No!???


Now I challenge you to a duel!

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='Laudate_Dominum' date='14 December 2009 - 07:55 PM' timestamp='1260838537' post='2020728']
Hey, cool, you can click and see who voted for what.

SMM, what the heck are you doing voting No!???


Now I challenge you to a duel!
[/quote]

But under the 1917 Code, those who participate in duels are excommunicated latae sententiae.

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='Resurrexi' date='14 December 2009 - 07:57 PM' timestamp='1260838620' post='2020729']
But under the 1917 Code, those who participate in duels are excommunicated latae sententiae.




[/quote]

[jeffpugh]

[quote name='Crispy' date='14 December 2009 - 05:59 PM' timestamp='1260831544' post='2020654']
I have to say that, despite my desire to preserve Latin in the liturgy in some way that is prudent and beneficial, I would be very unhappy if the Liturgy of the Hours was made to be exclusively in Latin. I'm sure some people catch on to Latin well, but I had a hard time learning it in college, and not much to show for it now (a short year later). If the entire breviary was only in Latin, that might be an impediment to my (hopeful) ordination to the priesthood. Short Latin prayers in the Mass, great, awesome. But 30-60 minutes daily of mandatory prayer only in Latin (lauds, vespers, office of readings, etc) would make "sanctifying the day" into a boring chore, since I am not fluent in the language.
[/quote]
You know, some saints would find the boring chore the best way to holiness

[quote name='Laudate_Dominum' date='14 December 2009 - 07:55 PM' timestamp='1260838537' post='2020728']
Hey, cool, you can click and see who voted for what.

SMM, what the heck are you doing voting No!???


Now I challenge you to a duel!
[/quote]
Lightsabres or the regular kind?

[aalpha1989]

[quote name='Socrates' date='14 December 2009 - 04:19 PM' timestamp='1260825560' post='2020558']
Actually, having attended TLM in several different churches in different states, I must beg to differ.
In every TLM I've been to, people did in fact show up for Mass well dressed and reverent. Considerably more so than in many "Novus Ordo" masses. While I don't deny that they could occur, I have not seen any form of liturgical abuse or irreverence at a Traditional Latin Mass. Both the priests and congregations have been reverent and respectful.

I'm not a "rad trad," I don't consider NO masses invalid, I've seen some very beautiful and reverent NO masses, and I'm not so naive as to think that simply returning universally to TLM will automatically solve all the problems in the Church today.
However, your charge that if we had the TLM, "it would be worse than ever," is blatant nonsense. The TLM never completely went away; in fact the Pope has given the universal indult. And where the TLM is said things are not "worse than ever," but the liturgy and demeanor of priest and congregation are reverent.

I see the problem as being not so much the NO mass, as the common abuses of it. I think a return to reverence and proper form, whether in the TLM or a properly-said NO mass, will in fact have an all-around positive effect on the Church, and our Holy Father realizes this.
[/quote]

I agree with everything here.

[OraProMe]

I think some people are confusing what Jim is saying. For example, Socrates, when he said that "conformists" attended the Latin Mass he was talking pre-Paul VI. When he said that "faith-filled" people attend the TLM he was talking 2009, when anyone willing to wake up at 6am to get to Mass obviously takes their faith far more seriously than many other Catholics. Please note that I prefer the Latin Mass and attended it for the vast majority of the time I was a practicing Catholic, but I have to agree with Jim that forcing it on people would cause a lot of problems.

[JimR-OCDS]

[quote name='OraProMe' date='15 December 2009 - 05:15 AM' timestamp='1260868557' post='2020872']
I think some people are confusing what Jim is saying. For example, Socrates, when he said that "conformists" attended the Latin Mass he was talking pre-Paul VI. When he said that "faith-filled" people attend the TLM he was talking 2009, when anyone willing to wake up at 6am to get to Mass obviously takes their faith far more seriously than many other Catholics. Please note that I prefer the Latin Mass and attended it for the vast majority of the time I was a practicing Catholic, but I have to agree with Jim that forcing it on people would cause a lot of problems.
[/quote]


Exactly what I've been saying.

Thank You

Jim