The Novus Ordo Missae

[Crispy]

I just took a class in Liturgy where we read the liturgical documents from Vatican II to the present day. While I didn't agree with all of my professor's explanations and interpretations of the liturgical documents, I did get some good perspective. I voted "no" b/c I think the Novus Ordo itself needn't be thrown out. I understand now that the liturgical reforms of Vatican II didn't pop out of nowhere, but that they were the culmination of hundreds of years of development (cf. Odo Casel, Lambert Beauduin, etc). I trust the Church's judgment when She says that She needs reform.

That said, I don't think that the Novus Ordo that we see today is exactly what the Church called for, neither in Vatican II nor in the preceding several hundred years. I don't mind the vernacular or new adaptations to suit the current needs of the Church. I do however disagree with the spirit dedicated to erasing all things traditional - newness for the sake of newness. That's not what the Church is about.

[Crispy]

Also, here's a sweet article by Fr. Joseph Fessio about all this. He digs into the council doc's and presents (in my opinion) a pretty balanced assessment.

[url="http://www.catholiceducation.org/articles/religion/re0540.html"]The Mass of Vatican II[/url]

[sacredheartandbloodofjesus]

[quote name='Resurrexi' date='12 December 2009 - 07:07 AM' timestamp='1260619650' post='2019024']
Here's the original quote from Cardinal Ratzinger, BTW:

"I believe, though, that in the long term the Roman Church must have again a single Roman rite. The existence of two official rites is for bishops and priests difficult to "manage" in practice. The Roman rite of the future should be a single rite, celebrated in Latin or in the vernacular, but standing completely in the tradition of the rite that has been handed down. It could take up some new elements which have proven themselves, like new feasts, some new prefaces in the Mass, and expanded lectionary---more choice than earlier, but not too much, an 'oratio fidelium', i.e., a fixed litany of intercessions following the Oremus before the offertory where it had its place earlier."

I really agree with most of what the Cardinal is saying here. I'm not not really a big fan of the "oratio fidelium", though it would be all right if, as Cardinal Ratzinger says here, it were a "fixed litany". And I really do like the current EF lectionary, though maybe making some of the readings longer or adding a [i]lectio[/i] to regular Sunday Masses rather than having them only on Ember Days would be an okay idea. I definitely am not in favor of a three-year cycle, though.
[/quote]

I voted No, but the above statement sounds like a very good idea.

[Apotheoun]

I voted "yes."

[Laudate_Dominum]

I would have voted WOOT! if that had been an option, but instead voted Yes.

[Apotheoun]

I think the Roman Rite should go back to using the older missal alone, but allow for the celebration of the liturgy in either Latin or the vernacular.

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='12 December 2009 - 01:55 PM' timestamp='1260644111' post='2019228']
I think the Roman Rite should go back to using the older missal alone, but allow for the celebration of the liturgy in either Latin or the vernacular.
[/quote]

I agree with the first part of that, but but I disagree with the second part. This is mainly because the chants of the Graduale are in Latin.

Edited December 12, 2009 by Resurrexi

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Resurrexi' date='12 December 2009 - 11:59 AM' timestamp='1260644355' post='2019232']
I agree with the first part of that, but not with the second part. This is mainly because the chants of the Graduale are in Latin.
[/quote]
The chants can be adapted to the various languages. The Anglican Communion has many theological problems, but the English chant it uses is quite beautiful.

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='12 December 2009 - 02:00 PM' timestamp='1260644458' post='2019233']
The chants can be adapted to the various languages. The Anglican Communion has many theological problems, but the English chant it uses is quite beautiful.
[/quote]

The chants can be adapted to vernacular languages, but not without loosing a lot. Also, the last time the shift from Latin to the vernacular happened, the Gregorian chants in the [i]Graduale[/i] were not adapted to English.

Edited December 12, 2009 by Resurrexi

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Resurrexi' date='12 December 2009 - 12:02 PM' timestamp='1260644574' post='2019234']
The chants can be adapted to vernacular languages, but not without loosing a lot. Also, the last time the shift from Latin to the vernacular happened, the Gregorian chants in the [i]Graduale[/i] were not adapted to English.
[/quote]
The Roman Rite would also gain a lot from incarnating the gospel into the various cultures of the world.

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='Crispy' date='12 December 2009 - 01:42 PM' timestamp='1260643335' post='2019205']
Also, here's a sweet article by Fr. Joseph Fessio about all this. He digs into the council doc's and presents (in my opinion) a pretty balanced assessment.

[url="http://www.catholiceducation.org/articles/religion/re0540.html"]The Mass of Vatican II[/url]
[/quote]

I agree; it is a fairly balanced assessment.

[iheartjp2]

[quote name='mortify' date='12 December 2009 - 01:39 AM' timestamp='1260599988' post='2018925']
To the author of the thread, why do you raise such topics? Do you like creating discord among Catholics?
[/quote]

THANK YOU!

This is the one of the most useless debates among Catholics out there because no matter what your opinion is, the Church did what she did for a reason. It doesn't suffice to say that the newer liturgy is the best thing since sliced bread or that it's the work of the devil in the Church (yes, I know I'm being hyperbolic). Whichever your preference, it's the mass, okay? It's the re-presentation of the Christ's death on the cross for the world in which you are allowed to participate. You're literally allowed to look upon God [i]physically[/i] and then partake of Him [i]physically[/i]. And do you know what the craziest part of it all is? YOU DON'T DESERVE IT. I and cerainly others would most definitely appreciate if something more conducive to unity were discussed instead of giving some people the opportunity to, once again, look a gift horse in the mouth.

Edited December 13, 2009 by iheartjp2

[Apotheoun]

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5_ASr4gEyP4[/media]

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='12 December 2009 - 08:44 PM' timestamp='1260668698' post='2019451']
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5_ASr4gEyP4[/media]
[/quote]

We'll have to ask SMM and Missionseeker how it compares with the original in Latin.

[OraProMe]

RE: Fr. Fessio's article

The Novus Ordo Mass I went to this morning was very "reform of the reform". No altar girls, no EMHC's, incense, gregorian chant, Kyrie in Greek, Creed in Latin, First Eucharistic prayer (the one from the TLM) and at the time of consecration four boys even came out with lanterns and knelt infront of the altar. I was the only person I could see who was able to recite the creed in Latin which is pretty sad considering what Vatican II calls for. I think the main problem with the Novus Ordo is the excessive options that the priest can pick from.