Islam And Homosexuality

[sacredheartandbloodofjesus]

Lets say the killing of homosexual muslims is right or just(I dont beleive it is)

Why do they set them on fire??

Why do they stone them??

Are there not more humane ways of execution? (Lethal injection, Hanging)

I agree with the Church when it says execution is no longer needed fo the punishment of criminals considering we have the neccesary means of safe imprisonment.

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='sacredheartandbloodofjesus' date='12 December 2009 - 02:29 PM' timestamp='1260646195' post='2019241']
Lets say the killing of homosexual muslims is right or just(I dont beleive it is)

Why do they set them on fire??

Why do they stone them??

Are there not more humane ways of execution? (Lethal injection, Hanging)

I agree with the Church when it says execution is no longer needed fo the punishment of criminals considering we have the neccesary means of safe imprisonment.
[/quote]

The law is not just for homosexual Muslims, it encompasses [u]all[/u] homosexuals.

[mortify]

[quote name='sacredheartandbloodofjesus' date='12 December 2009 - 02:29 PM' timestamp='1260646195' post='2019241']
Why do they set them on fire??
[/quote]

"Because the evil consequences of homosexuality are among the worst of evil consequences, so its punishment is one of the most severe of punishments in this world and in the Hereafter." - Islam-qa.com

[quote]Why do they stone them??
[/quote]

They are thrown from a high place and *then* stoned. The reason is it mimics the destruction of the people of Sodom and Gomorrah.

[Hassan]

[quote name='HisChildForever' date='12 December 2009 - 02:40 AM' timestamp='1260603617' post='2018982']
Can you please offer examples of the different punishments suggested? I feel like you are dodging this question.
[/quote]

In Iran the just punishment is generally deemed to be the public execution of the individual by hanging. Other well respected Islamic scholars say that no corporal punishment can be implemented at any time until there is a just society. Muhammad's implementation of his legal system was just in Medina because those unique circumstances increased personal culpability for sin to a degree not comparable in any modern society.

[Hussain]

[quote name='rkwright' date='12 December 2009 - 01:51 PM' timestamp='1260640267' post='2019170']
You guys act like its impossible to find 4 witnesses to punish someone of these crimes. Yet it happens all the time.

Isn't is also true you only need 2 witnesses to convict someone of theft? Of course the punishment for theft is amputation.

Who can be a witness? Who counts as a full witness? I have heard that only Muslim men count as a full witness, Muslim women count as 1/2 a witness, and non-muslims don't count at all.

You say that some scholars claim that samples or videos can be equal to one witness. The problem is that is some scholars and not the actual courts. As I understand it, courts do not look at forensic evidence at all. All you need is 4 witnesses.

Also as I understand it, there is no right to cross examine the witness, or test their credibility in any way.
[/quote]
That is not entirely true, two women for one man is only in the case offinancial transactions and that's all. Every other case women's witnessequals that of men, see 24:6-10, 65:2, 5:106 and 4:6.

[Hussain]

[quote name='HisChildForever' date='12 December 2009 - 02:01 PM' timestamp='1260640861' post='2019176']
I am certain our Muslim posters can answer that for you. Whether they DO answer it, though, is another matter entirely.
[/quote]

There is no reason for me to evade these questions. Today is a Saturday, I was a little busy .

Moving on, Islam is unique in that it does not only encompass your personal relation with God, but also your relations to your family, close of kin, community, and society at large. A few points need to be made: Iran is mostly shi'a, and I'm sunni, I'm not familiar with the shi'a stance on the punishment for homosexuality, I stated earlier that the Islamic scholars are divided on the issue of the appropriate punishment to be given. There is no agreement, as a worldly punishment for homosexual acts has not be delineated in the Qur'an or Prophetic teachings. The different schools of thought all provide a different punishment. One declares no punishment exists, one declares the punishment equal to that of adultery (floggings, see Quran 24:2-3), others declare imprisonment to death etc. Point being, there is disagreement, and the punishment given would presumably be according to what the majority believe in the respective country. Though getting 4 witnesses for the act is near impossible. Isn't stoning prescribed for adultery in the Old Testament?

And he that blasphemeth the name of the LORD, he shall surely be put to death, and all the congregation shall certainly stone him. Leviticus 24:16.

If a damsel that is a virgin be betrothed unto an husband, and a man find her in the city, and lie with her; Then ye shall bring them both out unto the gate of that city, and ye shall stone them with stones that they die; the damsel, because she cried not, being in the city. Deuteronomy 22:23-24.

Do you not believe Moses was a Prophet of God? Do you believe God ordained these punishments? Was it not God's religion back then, which was Truth also?

Moses' message, pbuh, was mainly recompense and justice, Jesus' message, pbuh, was forgiveness and compassion, Islam is a fusion of both, a culmination so to speak.

Edited December 13, 2009 by Hussain

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='Hussain' date='12 December 2009 - 08:52 PM' timestamp='1260669129' post='2019454']
There is no reason for me to evade these questions. Today is a Saturday, I was a little busy .

Moving on, Islam is unique in that it does not only encompass your personal relation with God, but also your relations to your family, close of kin, community, and society at large. A few points need to be made: Iran is mostly shi'a, and I'm sunni, I'm not familiar with the shi'a stance on the punishment for homosexuality, I stated earlier that the Islamic scholars are divided on the issue of the appropriate punishment to be given. There is no agreement, as a worldly punishment for homosexual acts has not be delineated in the Qur'an or Prophetic teachings. The different schools of thought all provide a different punishment. One declares no punishment exists, one declares the punishment equal to that of adultery (floggings, see Quran 24:2-3), others declare imprisonment to death etc. Point being, there is disagreement, and the punishment given would presumably be according to what the majority believe in the respective country. Though getting 4 witnesses for the act is near impossible. Isn't stoning prescribed for adultery in the Old Testament?

And he that blasphemeth the name of the LORD, he shall surely be put to death, and all the congregation shall certainly stone him. Leviticus 24:16.

If a damsel that is a virgin be betrothed unto an husband, and a man find her in the city, and lie with her; Then ye shall bring them both out unto the gate of that city, and ye shall stone them with stones that they die; the damsel, because she cried not, being in the city. Deuteronomy 22:23-24.

Do you not believe Moses was a Prophet of God? Do you believe God ordained these punishments? Was it not God's religion back then, which was Truth also?

Moses' message, pbuh, was mainly recompense and justice, Jesus' message, pbuh, was forgiveness and compassion, Islam is a fusion of both, a culmination so to speak.
[/quote]

Please do not try to lessen the shock that homosexuals are being executed in Islamic countries in 2009 by pointing out Old Testament verses. It has already been stated in this thread that the Old Covenant has been replaced by the New Covenant. I would also like to point out, as I did earlier, that Jesus prevented an adulteress from being stoned.

[Fidei Defensor]

[quote name='HisChildForever' date='12 December 2009 - 11:11 PM' timestamp='1260681073' post='2019538']
Please do not try to lessen the shock that homosexuals are being executed in Islamic countries in 2009 by pointing out Old Testament verses. It has already been stated in this thread that the Old Covenant has been replaced by the New Covenant. I would also like to point out, as I did earlier, that Jesus prevented an adulteress from being stoned.
[/quote]
You need to settle the heck down. You aren't going to "defeat" Islam by using "gotcha" tactics. Regardless of whether or not you want to face it, the Church executed people for their "sins" in the past. Don't act surprised that any religion would go to that length.

[Pomak]

[quote name='HisChildForever' date='13 December 2009 - 04:11 PM' timestamp='1260681073' post='2019538']
Please do not try to lessen the shock that homosexuals are being executed in Islamic countries in 2009 by pointing out Old Testament verses. It has already been stated in this thread that the Old Covenant has been replaced by the New Covenant. I would also like to point out, as I did earlier, that Jesus prevented an adulteress from being stoned.
[/quote]
As much as you recognize LRA (lord's resistance Army) as being Christian or following Christian values, I think you will find most of us would hold the same view for the "Islamic states".

[OraProMe]

I have a question which is more personal than theological. Do any of our Muslim guests know many gay people? Perhaps have homosexual friends or relatives? If so how does their faith impact on their relationship with this person? It's much easier to condemn someone and justify inhumane laws when the people they effect are anonymous.

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='Pomak' date='13 December 2009 - 04:03 AM' timestamp='1260695032' post='2019601']
As much as you recognize LRA (lord's resistance Army) as being Christian or following Christian values, I think you will find most of us would hold the same view for the "Islamic states".
[/quote]

Do you believe that when a homosexual is caught having sexual relations with a member of the same-sex, both individuals - once convicted - deserve death? If not, what do you believe they deserve?

Oh and as an aside, the atrocities committed by the Lord's Resistance Army do not reflect the teachings of Jesus Christ. What about the atrocities committed by Islamic countries (i.e. death to homosexuals)? What teachings do they reflect?

Edited December 13, 2009 by HisChildForever

[extempers]

[quote name='OraProMe' date='13 December 2009 - 04:20 AM' timestamp='1260696027' post='2019603']
I have a question which is more personal than theological. Do any of our Muslim guests know many gay people? Perhaps have homosexual friends or relatives? If so how does their faith impact on their relationship with this person? It's much easier to condemn someone and justify inhumane laws when the people they effect are anonymous.
[/quote]

*Ignoring other posts right now because too tired*


Yes, I know some and they struggle. Some have successfully dealt with their desires and are now married with kids. Others continue to struggle while others realize it is a life long struggle.

The key point is that in the Qur'an God tells us He does not give us a burden more than we can handle.

And then in another chapter he says Verily with every hardship comes ease.
This should be enough for our understanding, but God repeats in the next verse INDEED with every hardship comes ease.

Whenever God gives repetition it is showing the great importance placed on it.


The growing trend in homosexuality is one area where we must work together.
Catholic priests molesting children not only hurts Catholics but hurts humanity in general because it gives fodder to the homosexual platform.

[OraProMe]

[quote name='extempers' date='13 December 2009 - 06:13 PM' timestamp='1260746009' post='2019900']
*Ignoring other posts right now because too tired*


Yes, I know some and they struggle. Some have successfully dealt with their desires and are now married with kids. Others continue to struggle while others realize it is a life long struggle.

The key point is that in the Qur'an God tells us He does not give us a burden more than we can handle.

And then in another chapter he says Verily with every hardship comes ease.
This should be enough for our understanding, but God repeats in the next verse INDEED with every hardship comes ease.

Whenever God gives repetition it is showing the great importance placed on it.


The growing trend in homosexuality is one area where we must work together.
Catholic priests molesting children not only hurts Catholics but hurts humanity in general because it gives fodder to the homosexual platform.
[/quote]


No I don't mean do you know any gay Muslims that are hidding it or have decided to get married. I mean are you on good terms with anyone that is happily and openly homosexual?

"Catholic priests molesting children not only hurts Catholics but hurts humanity in general because it gives fodder to the homosexual platform."

I'm not really sure what the second part of this means. Maybe it's different in America but I haven't seen any homosexual lobby groups or homosexual using the child abuse scandal in the Catholic Church to further any political agenda and I'd know, I am one. Can you please explain what you mean?

Edited December 14, 2009 by OraProMe

[extempers]

[quote name='OraProMe' date='13 December 2009 - 08:39 PM' timestamp='1260754750' post='2019976']
No I don't mean do you know any gay Muslims that are hidding it or have decided to get married. I mean are you on good terms with anyone that is happily and openly homosexual?

"Catholic priests molesting children not only hurts Catholics but hurts humanity in general because it gives fodder to the homosexual platform."

I'm not really sure what the second part of this means. Maybe it's different in America but I haven't seen any homosexual lobby groups or homosexual using the child abuse scandal in the Catholic Church to further any political agenda and I'd know, I am one. Can you please explain what you mean?
[/quote]

That remain Muslim? I've known them and I might re-establish a friendship with one of them again, but for now, no.
I believe we need to continue to invite them back to the way of the truth and there are many doing just that.
We all have desires, but we all know this life is fleeting. As soon as we realize our purpose in life and that God does not give us a burden more than we can handle, we can start to approach things different.
Btw, you'd be surprised how many gays have come to Islam.
As for non-Muslims, yes I've had gay friends but I don't keep super close relationships with them anymore.

God has never punished a people like he punished the people of Lut (as). We can't ignore this.

As for priests, it follows the argument, homosexuality is natural and if we allow religion to suppress it, then they will act out badly like molesting children.

No public group would dare use such an argument, but among the people's perception is a very different story.

Edited December 14, 2009 by extempers

[OraProMe]

[quote name='extempers' date='13 December 2009 - 08:56 PM' timestamp='1260755792' post='2019990']
That remain Muslim? I've known them and I might re-establish a friendship with one of them again, but for now, no.
I believe we need to continue to invite them back to the way of the truth and there are many doing just that.
We all have desires, but we all know this life is fleeting. As soon as we realize our purpose in life and that God does not give us a burden more than we can handle, we can start to approach things different.
Btw, you'd be surprised how many gays have come to Islam.
As for non-Muslims, yes I've had gay friends but I don't keep super close relationships with them anymore.
[/quote]
Alright thanks

[quote]
God has never punished a people like he punished the people of Lut (as). We can't ignore this.
[/quote]
Should I be expecting to see San Francisco burning?

[quote]
As for priests, it follows the argument, homosexuality is natural and if we allow religion to suppress it, then they will act out badly like molesting children.
[/quote]

I don't think I've heard anyone, gay or straight, make that connection. If anything a homosexual activist would be firmly against such an argument because it implies that the abuse crisis is caused by homosexuals which would definitely not be something a gay activist would want to argue for.