Islam And Homosexuality

[OraProMe]

[quote name='HisChildForever' date='12 December 2009 - 02:00 AM' timestamp='1260601245' post='2018947']
My own thoughts have been formed based on the credible source I have provided, as well as other credible sources I have seen.
[/quote]

Then it shouldn't be hard to write for yourself. I want to engage in a conversation with HisChildForever about these issues, if I wanted to read an article I could do a google search for myself

I didn't quote D because I'm aware of the draconian "justice" system prevalent in many Islamic countries and don't wish this thread to turn into another opportunity for fear-mongering or over emotionalized arguing. My genuine interest was in the similarities between Catholic doctrine on homosexual acts and inclinations and Islamic doctrine on homosexual acts and inclinations.

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='OraProMe' date='12 December 2009 - 02:04 AM' timestamp='1260601482' post='2018952']
Then it shouldn't be hard to write for yourself. I want to engage in a conversation with HisChildForever about these issues, if I wanted to read an article I could do a google search for myself [/quote]

But as stated earlier, if I simply put Islamic teaching in my own words, I would be shrugged off as an individual with no credible backing.

[quote] I didn't quote D because I'm aware of the draconian "justice" system prevalent in many Islamic countries and don't wish this thread to turn into another opportunity for fear-mongering or over emotionalized arguing. My genuine interest was in the similarities between Catholic doctrine on homosexual acts and inclinations and Islamic doctrine on homosexual acts and inclinations.
[/quote]

I can certainly tell you that the Church does not believe in bringing a homosexual to court, nor does the Church believe in "punishing" a homosexual - I put "punishing" in quotations because I am waiting to hear what our Muslim posters mean by that.

[OraProMe]

[quote name='Hussain' date='12 December 2009 - 01:57 AM' timestamp='1260601043' post='2018944']
I'm not an expert on this, another member may be better equipped to handle this question. However, in general when there are no clear-cut rules in the Qur'an or Prophetic practices, then scholars resort to what is known as 'ijtihad', or striving to reach a ruling based on principles of the Quran and hadith. The punishment for homosexual acts was not carried out in the Prophet's time, and is not stipulated in the Qur'an.
[/quote]

That challenges my (and I'm willing to bet the OP's) misinformed knowledge of Islam on the issue. Thanks.

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='12 December 2009 - 02:04 AM' timestamp='1260601482' post='2018951']
What's with the four witnesses thing? Is this a universal norm that is applied to anything? Where did it come from, why is it applied, and in what types of situations?
[/quote]

I am more interested in learning about the kinds of punishment homosexual relations warrant under Islamic law.

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='OraProMe' date='12 December 2009 - 02:08 AM' timestamp='1260601690' post='2018956']
That challenges my (and I'm willing to bet the OP's) misinformed knowledge of Islam on the issue. Thanks.
[/quote]

H's post was rather vague, and like him I am willing to wait and see what other Muslim posters have to say.

[OraProMe]

[quote name='HisChildForever' date='12 December 2009 - 02:07 AM' timestamp='1260601621' post='2018955']
But as stated earlier, if I simply put Islamic teaching in my own words, I would be shrugged off as an individual with no credible backing.
[/quote]
Well I'm not sure who would do that and if they did don't take notice. I'm being completely honest when I say I'd much rather have a conversation with you than read websites. After all that's what a forum is for.

[quote]
I can certainly tell you that the Church does not believe in bringing a homosexual to court, nor does the Church believe in "punishing" a homosexual - I put "punishing" in quotations because I am waiting to hear what our Muslim posters mean by that.
[/quote]

I would say that is because the Church is historically Western (speaking geographically not liturgically) and such a punishment would no longer be acceptable in the democratic, secular West. I'm willing to bet that if Christianity was established in countries like Iran and Saudi Arabia that homosexuals would be punished and heretics would still be being burnt.

[Hussain]

[quote name='OraProMe' date='12 December 2009 - 03:00 AM' timestamp='1260601247' post='2018948']
"We try to interpret the Qur'an as close as possible to the first three generations following the Prophet, based on the exegesis provided by scholars"

Thanks man. Do you not think that trying to follow the interpretation of people who lived over 1000 years ago makes your religion stagnant and unable to effectively function in the modern world? For example in the Western world polygamy is no longer acceptable so would Islam conform to this changing society or stick to the conduct of people who lived centuries ago? Can Islamic teaching, to an extent, shape itself around changing social trends (Christianity has with the Jews for example)?
[/quote]

I mentioned that we interpret rulings, or in Islamic terms 'fiqh' based on how the pious generations understood their stipulations, and how they understood it was according to how the Prophet taught. Islam is for all times and places, a universal religion. Its teachings are absolute, what was made halal (permissible) by Allah remains as such, and what was made haram (prohibited) also remains as such. The Prophet taught us that what is halal has been made clear, and what is haram has been made clear, and to stay away from the 'gray area'. As Islam is universal, it recognizes customs and cultures of people, known as 'urf in Islamic terms. Scholars have informed us that Islamic injunctions change as you move from one 'urf to another. For example, if in one culture it is commonly held that it is not modest to uncover your upper body, then Muslim men must not do so, even if technically they are allowed. The issue of polygamy has been made permissible in the Qur'an, by God, so there is no abrogating that. However, there are conditions placed on that, as you must know already. God ordered us to marry only one if we fear injustice, and that we would be held accountable if we did otherwise. So in short, the clear-cut rules cannot be amended. And we believe that Islamic practice, both in spirituality and appilcation, was done more closely to what the Prophet taught, in the first few generations by the Companions and their offspring than now.

[Pomak]

[quote name='HisChildForever' date='12 December 2009 - 05:57 PM' timestamp='1260601066' post='2018945']
Can you explain what you mean by "punished"? Do you mean to say that an individual can be tried and charged on the basis of homosexual relations? If so, how will he or she be punished by the law?
[/quote]

[quote]

I'm not an expert on this, another member may be better equipped tohandle this question. However, in general when there are no clear-cutrules in the Qur'an or Prophetic practices, then scholars resort towhat is known as 'ijtihad', or striving to reach a ruling based onprinciples of the Quran and hadith. The punishment for homosexual actswas not carried out in the Prophet's time, and is not stipulated in theQur'an.[/quote]

[quote]
Thanks man. Do you not think that trying to follow the interpretationof people who lived over 1000 years ago makes your religion stagnantand unable to effectively function in the modern world? For example inthe Western world polygamy is no longer acceptable so would Islamconform to this changing society or stick to the conduct of people wholived centuries ago? Can Islamic teaching, to an extent, shape itselfaround changing social trends (Christianity has with the Jews forexample)?[/quote]

No, if something was divine back then then it is right today. A friend has a saying, "true religion seeks to conform the 21st century to it, and false religion seeks to conform to the 21st century".

[quote] What'swith the four witnesses thing? Is this a universal norm that is appliedto anything? Where did it come from, why is it applied, and in whattypes of situations? [/quote]
In order to punish someone to the fullest extent to the law you need 4 witnesses. Otherwise its up to the judge to decided if he will let you go or give you a smaller punishment.

In modern language its a burden of proof beyond a reasonable doubt on the party that seeks to bring the charges.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='Pomak' date='12 December 2009 - 01:16 AM' timestamp='1260602161' post='2018965']


In order to punish someone to the fullest extent to the law you need 4 witnesses. Otherwise its up to the judge to decided if he will let you go or give you a smaller punishment.

In modern language its a burden of proof beyond a reasonable doubt on the party that seeks to bring the charges.
[/quote]
You say "in modern language." Does that mean that four witnesses are not technically necessary? What replaces the reasonable amount of proof now?
(and does this four witnesses thing have some basis in your texts?)

[Pomak]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='12 December 2009 - 06:18 PM' timestamp='1260602313' post='2018967']
You say "in modern language." Does that mean that four witnesses are not technically necessary? What replaces the reasonable amount of proof now?
(and does this four witnesses thing have some basis in your texts?)
[/quote]

Yes it goes back to the prophet saws. As for today, some scholars claim that in rape cases semen samples or videos can be considered equal to 4 witnesses. (or at a minimum equal to one witness each)

[OraProMe]

[quote name='Hussain' date='12 December 2009 - 02:12 AM' timestamp='1260601922' post='2018963']
I mentioned that we interpret rulings, or in Islamic terms 'fiqh' based on how the pious generations understood their stipulations, and how they understood it was according to how the Prophet taught. Islam is for all times and places, a universal religion. Its teachings are absolute, what was made halal (permissible) by Allah remains as such, and what was made haram (prohibited) also remains as such. The Prophet taught us that what is halal has been made clear, and what is haram has been made clear, and to stay away from the 'gray area'. As Islam is universal, it recognizes customs and cultures of people, known as 'urf in Islamic terms. Scholars have informed us that Islamic injunctions change as you move from one 'urf to another. For example, if in one culture it is commonly held that it is not modest to uncover your upper body, then Muslim men must not do so, even if technically they are allowed. The issue of polygamy has been made permissible in the Qur'an, by God, so there is no abrogating that. However, there are conditions placed on that, as you must know already. God ordered us to marry only one if we fear injustice, and that we would be held accountable if we did otherwise. So in short, the clear-cut rules cannot be amended. And we believe that Islamic practice, both in spirituality and appilcation, was done more closely to what the Prophet taught, in the first few generations by the Companions and their offspring than now.
[/quote]

Okay. Does the wearing of the hijab fall under 'urf? Why is it required for women to cover their entire body in Saudi Arabia while in Iran a loose scarf is fine? Is this down to 'urf? What about the (ugh spelling...) Uigher regions of China (an area with a Muslim majority). Does the injunction for a woman to cover her head still hold strong here or give way to 'urf and cultural norms?

If homosexuality wasn't addressed by the pious generations then how is the punishment for homosexual acts decided in 2009?

[HisChildForever]

I would like our Muslim posters to answer the following questions. The answers can be as simple as possible.

1. What does Islam say about homosexuals and homosexual relations?

2. Why are homosexual relations considered "criminal" under Islamic law?

3. When a homosexual is "convicted" of having committed homosexual relations, what punishment does he or she receive?

4. As a follow-up to question #3, why is a homosexual deserving of such punishment [insert the answer to #3 here]?

Edited December 12, 2009 by HisChildForever

[Hussain]

[quote name='OraProMe' date='12 December 2009 - 03:22 AM' timestamp='1260602573' post='2018970']
Okay. Does the wearing of the hijab fall under 'urf? Why is it required for women to cover their entire body in Saudi Arabia while in Iran a loose scarf is fine? Is this down to 'urf? What about the (ugh spelling...) Uigher regions of China (an area with a Muslim majority). Does the injunction for a woman to cover her head still hold strong here or give way to 'urf and cultural norms?
[/quote]
Yes it does, the minimum required is covering all but the hands and face. But if in a certain place the majority cover their face, then it is encouraged to do so as well. Although Saudi Arabia is not entirely as such. But the 'minimum requirement' stays, wherever you are. (Refer to verse 31, chapter 24)

[quote]
If homosexuality wasn't addressed by the pious generations then how is the punishment for homosexual acts decided in 2009?
[/quote]

There's not just those generations, there's also 1400+ years of scholarship which have addressed such issues. And it's a matter of a difference of opinion on the punishment.

Edited December 12, 2009 by Hussain

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Pomak' date='11 December 2009 - 11:52 PM' timestamp='1260600777' post='2018936']
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CA2_kaqAOQU
[/quote]
That was an interesting talk, thank you for posting it. I can agree with much of what the man says, although I would not be able to assent to his comments about homosexual desires being "natural," but giving the man the benefit of the doubt . . . perhaps he was not being as precise as he should have been.

Edited December 12, 2009 by Apotheoun

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='Hussain' date='12 December 2009 - 02:33 AM' timestamp='1260603237' post='2018979']
And it's a matter of a difference of opinion on the punishment.
[/quote]

Can you please offer examples of the different punishments suggested? I feel like you are dodging this question.