Islam And Homosexuality

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Laudate_Dominum' date='14 December 2009 - 12:33 PM' timestamp='1260819235' post='2020463']
Apart from apocryphal traditions, 12 or 13 is generally considered by scholars to be the most likely age. The age of Joseph is even more conjectural but based on a survey of religious art the dominant theme in the East is an old man Joseph.
[/quote]
Mary may have been 15 years old or 30 years old. Guessing and calling it scholarship is always dangerous.

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='Laudate_Dominum' date='14 December 2009 - 02:51 PM' timestamp='1260820285' post='2020477']
Wow, you've got a knack for ignoring/avoiding issues.
[/quote]

Excuse me? I asked you a simple question. OBVIOUSLY I think that a man having sex with a fourteen year old is disgusting.

A man who has sex with a child is a pedophile. Muhammad was a man, Aisha was a child. Since you do not consider their sexual relationship pedophilia, I am wondering what you WOULD call it.

Edit: I like you, L_D. I know my post has a snappy tone but I find it bizarre how you blame me for avoiding an issue when you yourself refuse to provide a simple answer.

Edited December 14, 2009 by HisChildForever

[Apotheoun]

L_D,

I accept the Orthodox faith of the Church, and therefore I do not believe that Arius' teaching is Christian, nor do I believe that the teaching of Nestorius or Dioscorus Christian. I also do not believe that the various gnostic texts are Christian, and as far as pious texts are concerned, they are just that [i]pious[/i], and no one is required to accept another person's piety as true or valid. If it is a part of your personal piety to believe that Mary was 12 years old, that is fine with me, even though I do not share your opinion. Perhaps this is just another one of those East / West differences that Rexi hates so much.

Edited December 14, 2009 by Apotheoun

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='Laudate_Dominum' date='14 December 2009 - 02:42 PM' timestamp='1260819761' post='2020469']
I do not know, but I'd be weary of declaring him a pedophile if I were you (which you've done most explicitly in other threads). What is a Catholic who legally (by Church standards) marries and consummates with a twelve year old girl? To me personally the thought of a grown man marrying (in the full sense of the word) even a fourteen year old girl is repugnant, and yet it is allowed by canon law.
You are the one casting stones so I believe you should have the answers to these questions, not I.
[/quote]

It is rare for girls to even start puberty at nine, and 'start' is a key word. Sex with prepubescent individuals is pedophilia. There are worlds of differences between a 12 year old girl, and a 9 year old girl. A nine year old still have the body and mind of a child. Whilst a 12 year old has more of a woman's body, than a child.

If Muhammad had sex with a nine year old, and the Koran states that he did, he very very likely committed an act of pedophilia, because the child would still have had a child's body, and mind.

Clearly she had the mind of a child from what the Koran records of day she was taken from her house to have sex with Muhammad. Who by the way already had many wives, it is also recorded in the Koran of Muhammad looking at a baby girl playing at his feet and his wanting to marry her.

Muhammad as is recorded in the Koran and other Islamic text was a sex addict.

Edited December 14, 2009 by KnightofChrist

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='14 December 2009 - 02:50 PM' timestamp='1260820256' post='2020475']
I do not see, for example, the Gnostic Gospel of Thomas as "Christian stuff." That is unless heresy is orthodoxy.
[/quote]
An excellent and obstinate display of meaningless diversion. I trust you actually know the differences between the Gnostic gospels and the Gospel of James so I won't waste time composing a response.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Laudate_Dominum' date='14 December 2009 - 12:58 PM' timestamp='1260820701' post='2020487']
An excellent and obstinate display of meaningless diversion. I trust you actually know the differences between the Gnostic gospels and the Gospel of James so I won't waste time composing a response.
[/quote]
I simply refuse to be a heretic. Sorry if you see that as a form of diversion.

As far as the protoevangelium is concerned, I answered you above. A pious text has no dogmatic value, and no one is required to believe what is contained in such a text.

Edited December 14, 2009 by Apotheoun

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' date='14 December 2009 - 02:57 PM' timestamp='1260820636' post='2020486']
It is rare for girls to even start puberty at nine, and 'start' is a key word. Sex with prepubescent individuals is pedophilia. There are worlds of differences between a 12 year old girl, and a 9 year old girl. A nine year old still have the body and mind of a child. Whilst a 12 year old has more of a woman's body, than a child.

If Muhammad had sex with a nine year old, and the Koran states that he did, he very very likely committed an act of pedophilia, because the child would still have had a child's body, and mind.

Clearly she had the mind of a child from what the Koran records of day she was taken from her house to have sex with Muhammad. Who by the way already had many wives, it is also recorded in the Koran of Muhammad looking at a baby girl playing at his feet and his wanting to marry her.

Muhammad as is recorded in the Koran and other Islamic text was a sex addict.
[/quote]
Thanks Knight. I must say however, I find it interesting that you were so quick to defend the Babylonian Talmud and yet you spew Mohammed slander so freely and uncritically.

You do not know that Mohammed actually had sex with A'isha when she was nine, scholars do not even agree with this. Where do you get your information from? And I do find it funny that you are seemingly defending sex between a grown man and a twelve year old. You do not see the hypocrisy or the extreme bias?

I may have to opt out of this discussion as I find it to be little more than slander and mudslinging. I am sure that Muslims have decent apologetics against these attacks, hopefully they will post.

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='Laudate_Dominum' date='14 December 2009 - 03:09 PM' timestamp='1260821375' post='2020497']
Where do you get your information from?
[/quote]

The texts have already been quoted in this thread.

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='HisChildForever' date='14 December 2009 - 03:11 PM' timestamp='1260821471' post='2020500']
The texts have already been quoted in this thread.
[/quote]
Scholars dispute the meaning of those texts. What makes you or Knight so qualified to pass judgement? And again, you don't find it odd that such texts are interpreted in the worst light with such obstinacy, but when I referenced the Talmud on child marriage it is instantly written off with a large pasting of apologetics.

Also, I have the impression that outside of the West most Muslims have little problem with the idea that Mohammed consummated with A'isha when she was nine. I also have the impression that it is only in fairly recent history that Western critics of Mohammed have seen the marriage to A'isha as a moral fault. Why is this argument not present in historical anti-Muslim polemics? Not to derail the debate or anything, I'm genuinely curious about this as I believe the answers to be revealing.

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='Laudate_Dominum' date='14 December 2009 - 03:14 PM' timestamp='1260821698' post='2020507']
Scholars dispute the meaning of those texts. What makes you or Knight so qualified to pass judgement? And again, you don't find it odd that such texts are interpreted in the worst light with such obstinacy,[/quote]

I read it at face value. It blatantly said that Aisha was six.

[quote] but when I referenced the Talmud on child marriage it is instantly written off with a large pasting of apologetics.
[/quote]

Did I NOT say that was disgusting?

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Laudate_Dominum' date='14 December 2009 - 01:09 PM' timestamp='1260821375' post='2020497']
Thanks Knight. I must say however, I find it interesting that you were so quick to defend the Babylonian Talmud and yet you spew Mohammed slander so freely and uncritically. [/quote]
I agree with L_D. I see no reason for a Christian to defend the Talmud, since it is not accepted as authoritative in Christianity. Any defense of it should be undertaken by the Jews, because it has value in their religion.

Edited December 14, 2009 by Apotheoun

[Mark of the Cross]

[quote name='Laudate_Dominum' date='15 December 2009 - 07:09 AM' timestamp='1260821375' post='2020497']
I may have to opt out of this discussion as I find it to be little more than slander and mudslinging. I am sure that Muslims have decent apologetics against these attacks, hopefully they will post.
[/quote]

Stay with it man, you're doin' fine.

Edited December 14, 2009 by Mark of the Cross

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='Laudate_Dominum' date='14 December 2009 - 03:09 PM' timestamp='1260821375' post='2020497']
Thanks Knight. I must say however, I find it interesting that you were so quick to defend the Babylonian Talmud and yet you spew Mohammed slander so freely and uncritically. [/quote]

All I posted was a article that you didn't even bother to read.

[quote name='Laudate_Dominum' date='14 December 2009 - 03:09 PM' timestamp='1260821375' post='2020497']
You do not know that Mohammed actually had sex with A'isha when she was nine, scholars do not even agree with this. Where do you get your information from? And I do find it funny that you are seemingly defending sex between a grown man and a twelve year old. You do not see the hypocrisy or the extreme bias?[/quote]

I see that your emotions are ruling you. That you are making this debate very personal. I only point out that a 9 year old is still in many ways a child, where as a 12 year old has more of a body of an adult, and thus can more safely bare children, and the sex act itself, than the child body of a 9 year old.

[quote name='Laudate_Dominum' date='14 December 2009 - 03:09 PM' timestamp='1260821375' post='2020497']I may have to opt out of this discussion as I find it to be little more than slander and mudslinging. I am sure that Muslims have decent apologetics against these attacks, hopefully they will post.
[/quote]

Yes, state this whilst you look in the mirror.


My sources...

She had the mind of a child.

...my mother, Um Ruman, came to me while I was playing in a swing with some of my girl friends. She called me, and I went to her, not knowing what she wanted to do to me. She caught me by the hand and made me stand at the door of the house. I was breathless then, and when my breathing became Allright, she took some water and rubbed my face and head with it. Then she took me into the house. There in the house I saw some Ansari women who said, "Best wishes and Allah's Blessing and a good luck." Then she entrusted me to them and they prepared me (for the marriage). Unexpectedly Allah's Apostle came to me in the forenoon and my mother handed me over to him, and at that time I was a girl of nine years of age.
Sahih Bukhari 5:58:234



A'isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported that Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) married her when she was seven years old, and he was taken to his house as a bride when she was nine, and her dolls were with her; and when he (the Holy Prophet) died she was eighteen years old.
Sahih Muslim 8:3311


Narrated 'Aisha: I used to play with the dolls in the presence of the Prophet, and my girl friends also used to play with me. When Allah's Apostle used to enter they used to hide themselves, but the Prophet would call them to join and play with me. (The playing with the dolls and similar images is forbidden, but it was allowed for 'Aisha at that time, as she was a little girl, not yet reached the age of puberty.) (Fateh-al-Bari page 143, Vol.13)
Sahih Bukhari 8:73:151


'The Prophet' had sex with a 9 year old child.

Narrated 'Ursa: The Prophet wrote the (marriage contract) with 'Aisha while she was six years old and consummated his marriage with her while she was nine years old and she remained with him for nine years (i.e. till his death).
Sahih Bukhari 7:62:88

Narrated 'Aisha: that the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old, and then she remained with him for nine years (i.e., till his death).
Sahih Bukhari 7:62:64

Narrated Aisha, Ummul Mu'minin: The Apostle of Allah (peace be upon him) married me when I was seven or six. When we came to Medina, some women came. according to Bishr's version: Umm Ruman came to me when I was swinging. They took me, made me prepared and decorated me. I was then brought to the Apostle of Allah (peace be upon him), and he took up cohabitation with me when I was nine. She halted me at the door, and I burst into laughter.
Abu Dawud 41:4915


Muhammad wanted to marry a toddler.

(Suhayli, ii. 79: In the riwaya of Yunus I. I. recorded that the apostle saw her (Ummu'lFadl) when she was a baby crawling before him and said, 'If she grows up and I am still alive I will marry her.' But he died before she grew up and Sufyan b. al-Aswad b. 'Abdu'l-Asad al-Makhzumi married her and she bore him Rizq and Lubab...

Muhammad saw Um Habiba the daughter of Abbas while she was fatim (age of nursing) and he said, "If she grows up while I am still alive, I will marry her."
Musnad Ahmad, Number 25636

Edited December 14, 2009 by KnightofChrist

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' date='14 December 2009 - 03:35 PM' timestamp='1260822940' post='2020518']
All I posted was a article that you didn't even bother to read.



I see that your emotions are ruling you. That you are making this debate very personal. I only point out that a 9 year old is still in many ways a child, where as a 12 year old has more of a body of an adult, and thus can more safely bare children, and the sex act itself, than the child body of a 9 year old.



Yes, state this whilst you look in the mirror.


My sources...

She had the mind of a child.

...my mother, Um Ruman, came to me while I was playing in a swing with some of my girl friends. She called me, and I went to her, not knowing what she wanted to do to me. She caught me by the hand and made me stand at the door of the house. I was breathless then, and when my breathing became Allright, she took some water and rubbed my face and head with it. Then she took me into the house. There in the house I saw some Ansari women who said, "Best wishes and Allah's Blessing and a good luck." Then she entrusted me to them and they prepared me (for the marriage). Unexpectedly Allah's Apostle came to me in the forenoon and my mother handed me over to him, and at that time I was a girl of nine years of age.
Sahih Bukhari 5:58:234



A'isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported that Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) married her when she was seven years old, and he was taken to his house as a bride when she was nine, and her dolls were with her; and when he (the Holy Prophet) died she was eighteen years old.
Sahih Muslim 8:3311


'The Prophet' had sex with a 9 year old child.

Narrated 'Ursa: The Prophet wrote the (marriage contract) with 'Aisha while she was six years old and consummated his marriage with her while she was nine years old and she remained with him for nine years (i.e. till his death).
Sahih Bukhari 7:62:88

Narrated 'Aisha: that the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old, and then she remained with him for nine years (i.e., till his death).
Sahih Bukhari 7:62:64

Narrated Aisha, Ummul Mu'minin: The Apostle of Allah (peace be upon him) married me when I was seven or six. When we came to Medina, some women came. according to Bishr's version: Umm Ruman came to me when I was swinging. They took me, made me prepared and decorated me. I was then brought to the Apostle of Allah (peace be upon him), and he took up cohabitation with me when I was nine. She halted me at the door, and I burst into laughter.
Abu Dawud 41:4915


Muhammad wanted to marry a toddler.

(Suhayli, ii. 79: In the riwaya of Yunus I. I. recorded that the apostle saw her (Ummu'lFadl) when she was a baby crawling before him and said, 'If she grows up and I am still alive I will marry her.' But he died before she grew up and Sufyan b. al-Aswad b. 'Abdu'l-Asad al-Makhzumi married her and she bore him Rizq and Lubab...

Muhammad saw Um Habiba the daughter of Abbas while she was fatim (age of nursing) and he said, "If she grows up while I am still alive, I will marry her."
Musnad Ahmad, Number 25636
[/quote]

This is the PC police. Cease and desist immediately.

[Hassan]

[quote name='HisChildForever' date='14 December 2009 - 01:50 PM' timestamp='1260816613' post='2020432']
Muhammad is more than their prophet, he is the founder of Islam.
[/quote]


No he's not.

Muhammad [i]may[/i] have left us what is in the Qur'an. We don't know for sure how clear the line from the present text back to him is. Most of what we consider to be "Islam" was crafted over the first few centuries after Muhammad's death. The Hadith were collected by Bukari about a century after Muhammad died. Ditto with the biographies.