Islam And Homosexuality

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='Laudate_Dominum' date='14 December 2009 - 01:46 PM' timestamp='1260816390' post='2020425']
Haha, yes, because that's all you're doing is sharing facts right? I doubt many here are that naive. But really, if making war or marrying young girls disqualifies one as a prophet or messenger of God then the sources of Christian and Jewish revelation ought to be reevaluated.
[/quote]

Your over simplification comparison is quite naive.

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='Laudate_Dominum' date='14 December 2009 - 01:46 PM' timestamp='1260816390' post='2020425']
Haha, yes, because that's all you're doing is sharing facts right? I doubt many here are that naive. But really, if making war or marrying young girls disqualifies one as a prophet or messenger of God then the sources of Christian and Jewish revelation ought to be reevaluated.
[/quote]

Muhammad is more than their prophet, he is the founder of Islam.

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='14 December 2009 - 01:49 PM' timestamp='1260816559' post='2020430']
That is not part of the liturgical or doctrinal tradition of the Byzantine Churches. To be honest, it sounds like something one would hear in an apocryphal gospel.
[/quote]

Thought so, which is why I sought your clarification.

[rkwright]

[quote name='Laudate_Dominum' date='14 December 2009 - 01:46 PM' timestamp='1260816390' post='2020425']
Haha, yes, because that's all you're doing is sharing facts right? I doubt many here are that naive. But really, if making war or marrying young girls disqualifies one as a prophet or messenger of God then the sources of Christian and Jewish revelation ought to be reevaluated.

Knight - tl;dr, but I am aware of the existence of modern apologetics that write off the issue (I prefer legitimate scholarly sources). I will at least admit that what some rabbi's apparently taught does not represent any common practice that I am aware of. Marriages of 9-12 year old girls no doubt, but 3 is a bit odd for any era.
[/quote]

L_d - tl;dr.

haha I love that response.

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='14 December 2009 - 01:49 PM' timestamp='1260816559' post='2020430']
That is not part of the liturgical or doctrinal tradition of the Byzantine Churches. To be honest, it sounds like something one would hear in an apocryphal gospel.
[/quote]
It is recorded in apocryphal Christian literature, but is still a common belief among Christians, particularly in the East where the tradition is reflected in religious art from the earliest times. The West generally paints a different picture of Joseph and Mary as being closer in age, but both are apocryphal.

But really, one need not quibble about such things as current canon law permits girls to marry at 14, and in times past the canon law specified 12 years of age (and there are many examples; e.g., St. Elizabeth of Portugal married at 12 and became pregnant straight away). This is not betrothal by the way, but consummate marriage. Certainly this would offend the moral sensibility of many. Some countries do not allow marriage until after the age of twenty, I imagine that people of such a culture would cringe at the thought of a grown man marrying a 16, 15 or 14 year old girl. Incidentally, the marriage of girls as young as 14 is legally possible in the United States - in some states with court approval; 15 and 16 in many states with parental consent.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Laudate_Dominum' date='14 December 2009 - 12:06 PM' timestamp='1260817617' post='2020444']
It is recorded in apocryphal Christian literature, but is still a common belief among Christians, particularly in the East where the tradition is reflected in religious art from the earliest times. The West generally paints a different picture of Joseph and Mary as being closer in age, but both are apocryphal.[/quote]
Really, I was Roman Catholic for 17 years and people were all over the place on how old Mary and Joseph were.

[quote name='Laudate_Dominum' date='14 December 2009 - 12:06 PM' timestamp='1260817617' post='2020444']
But really, one need not quibble about such things as current canon law permits girls to marry at 14, and in times past the canon law specified 12 years of age (and there are many examples; e.g., St. Elizabeth of Portugal married at 12 and became pregnant straight away). This is not betrothal by the way, but consummate marriage. Certainly this would offend the moral sensibility of many. Some countries do not allow marriage until after the age of twenty, I imagine that people of such a culture would cringe at the thought of a grown man marrying a 16, 15 or 14 year old girl. Incidentally, the marriage of girls as young as 14 is legally possible in the United States - in some states with court approval; 15 and 16 in many states with parental consent.
[/quote]
Key word is apocryphal. To my knowledge the ages of Mary and Joseph have never been stated in the divine liturgy, which is the only way that one could consider any specific age as authoritative.

Edited December 14, 2009 by Apotheoun

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='14 December 2009 - 02:16 PM' timestamp='1260818213' post='2020455']
Key word is apocryphal. To my knowledge the ages of Mary and Joseph have never been stated in the divine liturgy, which is the only way that one could consider any specific age as authoritative.
[/quote]
The historical accuracy of the apocryphal literature matters little, the fact of such traditions and "pious" stories is what matters in the point I was making. People in the early Church did not equate marriage between a grown man (or even elderly man) and a barely pubescent girl with 'dirty old man' pedophilia, or apparently anything of a taboo sort. These Christian traditions and literature are relevant to some extent because I am suggesting that to say or imply that Mohammed was a creepy pedophile for marrying A'isha is not particular fair and that such a marriage is not something all that unusual historically speaking, particularly for the elite of society.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Laudate_Dominum' date='14 December 2009 - 12:27 PM' timestamp='1260818824' post='2020460']
The historical accuracy of the apocryphal literature matters little, the fact of such traditions and "pious" stories is what matters in the point I was making. People in the early Church did not equate marriage between a grown man (or even elderly man) and a barely pubescent girl with 'dirty old man' pedophilia, or apparently anything of a taboo sort. These Christian traditions and literature are relevant to some extent because I am suggesting that to say or imply that Mohammed was a creepy pedophile for marrying A'isha is not particular fair and that such a marriage is not something all that unusual historically speaking, particularly for the elite of society.
[/quote]
Some are pious and some are heretical, but the stories themselves do not agree, and so no firm conclusion can be made; while - on the other hand - in the case of Mohammad the Muslim source materials state A'isha was six or seven years old.

Edited December 14, 2009 by Apotheoun

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='14 December 2009 - 02:16 PM' timestamp='1260818213' post='2020455']
Really, I was Roman Catholic for 17 years and people were all over the place on how old Mary and Joseph were.
[/quote]
Apart from apocryphal traditions, 12 or 13 is generally considered by scholars to be the most likely age. The age of Joseph is even more conjectural but based on a survey of religious art the dominant theme in the East is an old man Joseph.

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='Laudate_Dominum' date='14 December 2009 - 02:27 PM' timestamp='1260818824' post='2020460']
The historical accuracy of the apocryphal literature matters little, the fact of such traditions and "pious" stories is what matters in the point I was making. People in the early Church did not equate marriage between a grown man (or even elderly man) and a barely pubescent girl with 'dirty old man' pedophilia, or apparently anything of a taboo sort. These Christian traditions and literature are relevant to some extent because I am suggesting that to say or imply that Mohammed was a creepy pedophile for marrying A'isha is not particular fair and that such a marriage is not something all that unusual historically speaking, particularly for the elite of society.
[/quote]

What was he, then?

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='14 December 2009 - 02:31 PM' timestamp='1260819068' post='2020461']
Some are pious and some are heretical, but the stories themselves do not agree, and so no firm conclusion can be made; while - on the other hand - in the case of Mohammad the Muslim source materials state A'isha was six or seven years old.
[/quote]
I think I see the trend here. Any Christian stuff that offends our sensibilities will be declared dubious and "no firm conclusion can be made;" while unfortunate things pertaining to Mohammed will be uncritically accepted as fact. I trust this isn't what your trying to say, but posts like this do lend themselves towards such an interpretation.
Once again, you're obfuscating the issues by pretending that the status of XYZ apocryphal literature has anything to do with the point being made.

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='HisChildForever' date='14 December 2009 - 02:34 PM' timestamp='1260819243' post='2020464']
What was he, then?
[/quote]
I do not know, but I'd be weary of declaring him a pedophile if I were you (which you've done most explicitly in other threads). What is a Catholic who legally (by Church standards) marries and consummates with a twelve year old girl? To me personally the thought of a grown man marrying (in the full sense of the word) even a fourteen year old girl is repugnant, and yet it is allowed by canon law.
You are the one casting stones so I believe you should have the answers to these questions, not I.

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='Laudate_Dominum' date='14 December 2009 - 02:42 PM' timestamp='1260819761' post='2020469']
I do not know, but I'd be weary of declaring him a pedophile if I were you (which you've done most explicitly in other threads). What is a Catholic who legally (by Church standards) marries and consummates with a twelve year old girl? To me personally the thought of a grown man marrying (in the full sense of the word) even a fourteen year old girl is repugnant, and yet it is allowed by canon law.
You are the one casting stones so I believe you should have the answers to these questions, not I.
[/quote]

If you do not consider a man having sex with a child "pedophilia" I am curious to hear what you do call it.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Laudate_Dominum' date='14 December 2009 - 12:38 PM' timestamp='1260819512' post='2020466']
I think I see the trend here. Any Christian stuff that offends our sensibilities will be declared dubious and "no firm conclusion can be made;" while unfortunate things pertaining to Mohammed will be uncritically accepted as fact. I trust this isn't what your trying to say, but posts like this do lend themselves towards such an interpretation.
Once again, you're obfuscating the issues by pretending that the status of XYZ apocryphal literature has anything to do with the point being made.
[/quote]
I do not see, for example, the Gnostic Gospel of Thomas as "Christian stuff." That is unless heresy is orthodoxy.

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='HisChildForever' date='14 December 2009 - 02:45 PM' timestamp='1260819950' post='2020472']
If you do not consider a man having sex with a child "pedophilia" I am curious to hear what you do call it.
[/quote]
Wow, you've got a knack for ignoring/avoiding issues.