Islam And Homosexuality

[HisChildForever]

This is for those members who are quick to judge Catholic teaching pertaining to homosexuality, and slow to recognize the Islamic teaching.

[quote] Homosexuality, moreover, is an abomination and a grave sin. In Hadith, the Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, clarifies the gravity of this abomination by saying: [b]“Allah curses the one who does the actions (homosexual practices) of the people of Lut”[/b] repeating it three times; and he said in another Hadith: [b]“If a man comes upon a man then they are both adulterers.”[/b] Here, he considered homosexuality tantamount to adultery in relation to the Shari’ah punishments because it is an abomination on the one hand and the definition of adultery applies to it on the other hand. [/quote]

[quote]As for lesbians, the Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, said about them: [b]"If a woman comes upon a woman, they are both Adulteresses”.[/b] The scholars mentioned that it is incumbent on the authority to enact a reprimand on lesbians that is fitting to the crime committed. [/quote]

[quote] It is true that some of the scholars disagreed with these punishments not because of doubt that these actions constitute a crime, but because of a lack of divine textual stipulation for a worldly punishment. [b]But the actions of the Prophet’s Companions do indicate that in fact this crime has a worldly punishment, to be carried out by those in authority among the Muslims.[/b] The story of Abu Bakr Al-Siddiq when Khalid Ibn Al-Waleed wrote to him on this matter is famous and can be referenced in many sources.

[The story referred to above goes as follows:

"In his book Fat-h al-Qadir, the famous Hanafi scholar, Ibn al-Humam states:

“Al-Bayhaqi reported in his book Shu`ab al-Iman on the authority of Abu ad-Dunya that Abd al-`Aziz ibn Abi Hazim related from Dawud ibn Bakr who related from Muhammad ibn al-Mukadir the following:

“Khalid Ibn al-Walid wrote to Abu Bakr [seeking the legal ruling] concerning a man with whom another man had sexual intercourse. Thereupon, Abu Bakr gathered the Companions of the Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, and sought their opinion. `Ali, may Allah be pleased with him, was the strictest of all, saying, [b]'Only one nation disobeyed Allah by committing such sin and you know how Allah dealt with them. I see that we should burn the man with fire.’ The Companions unanimously agreed on this.”[/b] This incident is also mentioned by al-Waqidi under the subject of apostasy at the end of the section on the apostasy of Bani Salim.]” [/quote]

Islam and Homosexuality:
- Homosexual relations are a grave offense against Allah
- Homosexual relations are criminal
- Anyone caught participating in homosexuality should be lit on fire

Information taken from an Islamic website: http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/Satellite?pagename=IslamOnline-English-Ask_Scholar/FatwaE/FatwaE&cid=1119503545556

*

Please note that while the Church declares homosexual relations to be gravely disordered, the Church teaches us to love homosexuals and to pray for the salvation of their souls.

[u]The [i]Catechism of the Catholic Church[/i]:[/u]

[b]Chastity and homosexuality[/b]

[b]2357[/b] Homosexuality refers to relations between men or between women who experience an exclusive or predominant sexual attraction toward persons of the same sex. It has taken a great variety of forms through the centuries and in different cultures. Its psychological genesis remains largely unexplained. Basing itself on Sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity, tradition has always declared that "homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered." They are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved.

[b]2358[/b] The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. [u]They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God's will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord's Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition.[/u]

[b]2359[/b] Homosexual persons are called to chastity. By the virtues of self-mastery that teach them inner freedom, at times by the support of disinterested friendship, by prayer and sacramental grace, they can and should gradually and resolutely approach Christian perfection.

Link: http://www.vatican.va/archive/catechism/p3s2c2a6.htm

*

So to certain Phatmass members who get excited calling the Church "homophobic" - please think again, and recall what Islam has to say about homosexuality.

[OraProMe]

lawl

Is this directed at me? Because I think I've been far from quick to judge the Magisterium's teaching on this issue. What I will say is that my knowledge of Islam is not nearly as comprehensive as my knowledge of Catholic doctrine so [b]I do not feel qualified to make broad, generalized condemnations of a particular religion until I fully understand that faith[/b] (please take note). HCF you really must stop with these cut and paste jobs, it's no different than Varg thinking cutting and pasting from Leviticus is going to disprove Christianity.

I do have a question for our Muslim guests though! In Christianty there is a tradition of scriptural interpretation (google exegesis and hermeneutics) by which some things are understood in a metaphorical sense, for example Catholics do not believe the universe was created in one week as recounted in the book of Genesis. Is there a similar system of interpretation in Islam?

Edited December 12, 2009 by OraProMe

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='OraProMe' date='12 December 2009 - 01:28 AM' timestamp='1260599326' post='2018921']
lawl

Is this directed at me? Because I think I've been far from quick to judge the Magisterium's teaching on this issue. What I will say is that my knowledge of Islam is not nearly as comprehensive as my knowledge of Catholic doctrine so [b]I do not feel qualified to make broad, generalized condemnations of a particular religion until I fully understand that faith[/b] (please take note).[/quote]

I am simply stating what the Islamic teachings are on homosexuality. My information comes from an Islamic website.

[quote] HCF you really must stop with these cut and paste jobs, it's no different than Varg thinking cutting and pasting from Leviticus is going to disprove Christianity.[/quote]

You people are never happy. If I state the teaching, I will be dismissed as ignorant without any credible sources to back up my claims. When I do state the teaching, I am dismissed as having performed a "cut and paste" job. Which is not what I did - I posted an intelligent and thoughtful article, which was posted on a faithful Islamic website.

[HisChildForever]

Imam to gay Muslim: "No person can make his interpretation to suit his desires, or her desires when you have clear cut verses!"

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ibmaiIGr56w[/media]

[Hussain]

[quote name='OraProMe' date='12 December 2009 - 02:28 AM' timestamp='1260599326' post='2018921']
lawl

Is this directed at me? Because I think I've been far from quick to judge the Magisterium's teaching on this issue. What I will say is that my knowledge of Islam is not nearly as comprehensive as my knowledge of Catholic doctrine so [b]I do not feel qualified to make broad, generalized condemnations of a particular religion until I fully understand that faith[/b] (please take note). HCF you really must stop with these cut and paste jobs, it's no different than Varg thinking cutting and pasting from Leviticus is going to disprove Christianity.

I do have a question for our Muslim guests though! In Christianty there is a tradition of scriptural interpretation (google exegesis and hermeneutics) by which some things are understood in a metaphorical sense, for example Catholics do not believe the universe was created in one week as recounted in the book of Genesis. Is there a similar system of interpretation in Islam?
[/quote]
I can give you a quick answer though I'm sure others can provide something more in-depth. But Muslims believe there is the exegesis of the Qur'an known as tafsir, and then the esoteric interpretations known as ta'weel. Tafsir is more outward interpretation, ta'weel is inward, spiritual interpretation.

We try to interpret the Qur'an as close as possible to the first three generations following the Prophet, based on the exegesis provided by scholars, mainly for the purpose of Islamic rulings as we want to be as close to the pure teachings as possible. We do so because our Prophet Muhammad, pbuh, informed that the best generation is his, then the following generation, then the following. There are verses though that are interpreted today differently from before, mainly because of advancements in science and such, example being the stages of the embryological cycle. Hope this helps.

As for the original topic, homosexuals in and of themselves are not sinners, until they commit the act.

Edited December 12, 2009 by Hussain

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='Hussain' date='12 December 2009 - 01:45 AM' timestamp='1260600303' post='2018929']
I can give you a quick answer though I'm sure others can provide something more in-depth. But Muslims believe there is the exegesis of the Qur'an known as tafsir, and then the esoteric interpretations known as ta'weel. Tafsir is more outward interpretation, ta'weel is inward, spiritual interpretation.

We try to interpret the Qur'an as close as possible to the first three generations following the Prophet, based on the exegesis provided by scholars, mainly for the purpose of Islamic rulings as we want to be as close to the pure teachings as possible. We do so because our Prophet Muhammad, pbuh, informed that the best generation is his, then the following generation, then the following. There are verses though that are interpreted today differently from before, mainly because of advancements in science and such, example being the stages of the embryological cycle. Hope this helps.

As for the original topic, homosexuals in and of themselves are not sinners, until they commit the act.
[/quote]

Thank you for your reply. What happens when homosexuals commit the act of homosexual relations - more precisely, what happens when they are caught?

[Pomak]

Oh please... Its rather simple,

A. If you are a homosexual and you do not react on your impulses then you get rewarded for not sinning
b. If you are a homosexual and you commit these acts but no one knows about them, then you will be accountable to your lord unless you seek tawbah(abandon practice and seek God's mercy)
c. You commit the act and think its permissible, you are not a Muslim
d. commit the act and someone manages to supply 4 witnesses to the crime, only then do you get punished.

We are thought that loving of the sake of loving is a form of extremism. We love what god loves and hate what god hates.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CA2_kaqAOQU

[OraProMe]

[quote name='HisChildForever' date='12 December 2009 - 01:37 AM' timestamp='1260599859' post='2018924']
I am simply stating what the Islamic teachings are on homosexuality. My information comes from an Islamic website.
[/quote]

Do I have to quote the Old Testament on the strikingly similar punishments for homosexuals?

[quote]
You people are never happy. If I state the teaching, I will be dismissed as ignorant without any credible sources to back up my claims. When I do state the teaching, I am dismissed as having performed a "cut and paste" job. Which is not what I did - I posted an intelligent and thoughtful article, which was posted on a faithful Islamic website.
[/quote]

First you did do a "cut and paste" job regardless of the source or substance of the article. Very little of what you post on the issue are your own thoughts. Second I really want you to consider what I orginally said [i]"I do not feel qualified to make broad, generalized condemnations of a particular religion until I fully understand that faith"[/i] and re-evaluate your approach to this topic. Your style of debate is absolutely no different to Varg and how many people take his thoughts on Christianity seriously? You're no different.

[OraProMe]

[quote name='Pomak' date='12 December 2009 - 01:52 AM' timestamp='1260600777' post='2018936']
Oh please... Its rather simple,

A. If you are a homosexual and you do not react on your impulses then you get rewarded for not sinning
b. If you are a homosexual and you commit these acts but no one knows about them, then you will be accountable to your lord unless you seek tawbah(abandon practice and seek God's mercy)
c. You commit the act and think its permissible, you are not a Muslim
[/quote]

Alright, thankyou. Your position and distinction between acts and inclinations is almost identical to Catholic doctrine to so I really don't see what the OP purpose is.

[Hussain]

[quote]Thank you for your reply. What happens when homosexuals commit the actof homosexual relations - more precisely, what happens when they arecaught?[/quote]

I'm not an expert on this, another member may be better equipped to handle this question. However, in general when there are no clear-cut rules in the Qur'an or Prophetic practices, then scholars resort to what is known as 'ijtihad', or striving to reach a ruling based on principles of the Quran and hadith. The punishment for homosexual acts was not carried out in the Prophet's time, and is not stipulated in the Qur'an.

Edited December 12, 2009 by Hussain

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='Pomak' date='12 December 2009 - 01:52 AM' timestamp='1260600777' post='2018936']
d. commit the act and someone manages to supply 4 witnesses to the crime, only then do you get punished.
[/quote]

Can you explain what you mean by "punished"? Do you mean to say that an individual can be tried and charged on the basis of homosexual relations? If so, how will he or she be punished by the law?

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='OraProMe' date='12 December 2009 - 01:56 AM' timestamp='1260600999' post='2018943']
Alright, thankyou. Your position and distinction between acts and inclinations is almost identical to Catholic doctrine to so I really don't see what the OP purpose is.
[/quote]

Ora, why did you only quote the first three parts of his post - a, b, c - and not d, which reads:

[b]d. commit the act and someone manages to supply 4 witnesses to the crime, only then do you get punished.[/b]

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='OraProMe' date='12 December 2009 - 01:55 AM' timestamp='1260600903' post='2018939']
Do I have to quote the Old Testament on the strikingly similar punishments for homosexuals?

First you did do a "cut and paste" job regardless of the source or substance of the article. Very little of what you post on the issue are your own thoughts. Second I really want you to consider what I orginally said [i]"I do not feel qualified to make broad, generalized condemnations of a particular religion until I fully understand that faith"[/i] and re-evaluate your approach to this topic. Your style of debate is absolutely no different to Varg and how many people take his thoughts on Christianity seriously? You're no different.
[/quote]

My own thoughts have been formed based on the credible source I have provided, as well as other credible sources I have seen.

[OraProMe]

[quote name='Hussain' date='12 December 2009 - 01:45 AM' timestamp='1260600303' post='2018929']
I can give you a quick answer though I'm sure others can provide something more in-depth. But Muslims believe there is the exegesis of the Qur'an known as tafsir, and then the esoteric interpretations known as ta'weel. Tafsir is more outward interpretation, ta'weel is inward, spiritual interpretation.

We try to interpret the Qur'an as close as possible to the first three generations following the Prophet, based on the exegesis provided by scholars, mainly for the purpose of Islamic rulings as we want to be as close to the pure teachings as possible. We do so because our Prophet Muhammad, pbuh, informed that the best generation is his, then the following generation, then the following. There are verses though that are interpreted today differently from before, mainly because of advancements in science and such, example being the stages of the embryological cycle. Hope this helps.

As for the original topic, homosexuals in and of themselves are not sinners, until they commit the act.
[/quote]


"We try to interpret the Qur'an as close as possible to the first three generations following the Prophet, based on the exegesis provided by scholars"

Thanks man. Do you not think that trying to follow the interpretation of people who lived over 1000 years ago makes your religion stagnant and unable to effectively function in the modern world? For example in the Western world polygamy is no longer acceptable so would Islam conform to this changing society or stick to the conduct of people who lived centuries ago? Can Islamic teaching, to an extent, shape itself around changing social trends (Christianity has with the Jews for example)?

[Nihil Obstat]

What's with the four witnesses thing? Is this a universal norm that is applied to anything? Where did it come from, why is it applied, and in what types of situations?