Is Islam A Religion Of Truth, Peace And Love Or Not?

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='JimR-OCDS' date='15 December 2009 - 09:28 AM' timestamp='1260890911' post='2020926']
Transformation comes through the transforming grace given to us through Jesus Christ. We open ourselves to this grace in contemplation.


Jim
[/quote]
Your sentence [s]indicated[/s] explicitly stated that contemplative prayer is the only way to have a relationship with Jesus. That is incorrect.

Edited December 15, 2009 by Nihil Obstat

[Winchester]

[quote name='JimR-OCDS' date='15 December 2009 - 10:28 AM' timestamp='1260890911' post='2020926']
Transformation comes through the transforming grace given to us through Jesus Christ. We open ourselves to this grace in contemplation.


Jim
[/quote]
I'm certain you can cite the official teachings that limit a relationship with Jesus to those who use contemplative prayer.

[JimR-OCDS]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='15 December 2009 - 11:31 AM' timestamp='1260891068' post='2020929']
Your sentence [s]indicated[/s] explicitly stated that contemplative prayer is the only way to have a relationship with Jesus. That is incorrect.
[/quote]


Contemplation is the deepest relationship we have with Christ while here on earth. We only reach contemplation by being open to it, through contemplative prayer.

Jim

[Winchester]

How do we acheive spiritual arrogance?

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='JimR-OCDS' date='15 December 2009 - 10:03 AM' timestamp='1260892983' post='2020953']
Contemplation is the deepest relationship we have with Christ while here on earth. We only reach contemplation by being open to it, through contemplative prayer.

Jim
[/quote]
I have a feeling that the deepest relationship we can have with Christ is through receiving what is truly and substantially his Body and Blood in the Eucharist.

In any case, you said that contemplative prayer is the only way to have a relationship with Christ, and that was blatantly wrong.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='JimR-OCDS' date='11 December 2009 - 04:48 PM' timestamp='1260564495' post='2018602']





True, but the members make up the body of Christ, which is the Church. When the members sin, it harms the Church.



The Church as an institution, no longer burns heretics at the stake. She no longer forces conversion, etc.

Teilhard De Chardin, wrote on the spiritual evolution of the Church. Just as man evolved biologically, so too, he evolve spiritually. The Church is responsible for bring man through that spiritual evolution.



Our understanding of truth evolves and how we bring that truth to the world does as well.



Fundamentalism is when a person reads either the Bible, or in the case with Catholics, the Catechism or other Church teachings, and takes them literally as he/she understands them, not as the Church teaches them.




So use the definition I heard Pastor Rick Warren use, a fundamentalist, is one who has stopped listening.

Jim
[/quote]
Every single one of your points is wrong, at least you are consistant...

[Winchester]

The hobgoblin of small minds.

[Winchester]

[quote name='JimR-OCDS' date='15 December 2009 - 09:38 AM' timestamp='1260887939' post='2020910']
Socrates



Actually, my information comes from Catholic Historians.

One good source is; Triumph: The Power and the Glory of the Catholic Church, by H.W Crocker III.




I think the Church, that is its members, are less sinful than those of the past. Take an honest look at the past history of the Church, and you'll see, we today live in very mild, tolerant times.



I've said plenty positive about the Church. As I stated, the Church has evolved Spiritually, and is far better than it was in the past. The rich spirituality of the past is not only more accessible to average Catholics, but also better understood because good Catholic writers were able to translate the writings into understandable language.


Yup, always have been saints and sinners, but the institutional policies are not nearly as barbaric as in the past. Also, I think God is actually producing more saints today than ever.

It seems to me, you're the one who is more negative about the Church of today, and have some dreamy ideas about the past, that aren't real.



OH, there was plenty of sexual abuse in the past, especially when the Church was at the height of power throughout Europe, were people feared the Clergy. Do you think humans suspended their inordinate desires and didn't take advantage of their positions?



Evil mindsets don't hold to political labels such as progressive or conservative. Give men power, and their will be abuse. In all the cases of sexual abuse committed by Catholic priest, it was the level of the authority and respect they held, that allowed them to take advantage of the innocent. Most of the
sexual abuse happened over 20 years ago. Many of the priest were in the seminary before Vatican II, so don't attempt to place the blame there.



You seem to have a belief that sin is limited to progressives. Cardinal Law was considered a conservative, when he came to the Archdiocese of Boston. He, wrote a glowing letter of approval, in order to get Fr Shanely transferred out of his dioces and out to San Bernardino California. Fr. Shanely was a know pedophile. Shanely was convicted and is in jail today. Cardinal Law was removed from his post and placed in charge of a shrine.





It has everything to do with my point. Spiritual growth only comes through contemplation. Without contemplative prayer, there is no relationship with Jesus Christ, and no transformation of the soul.
This isn't my idea, but that of the Doctors of the Church, like St. Teresa of Avila.



I believe that there is a lot more prayer that is done well today, than in the past. I'm not talking about reeling off prayer by rote, which was common in the past, but deeper levels of prayer. Contemplatives and especially Charismatics were unheard of before Vatican II. Deeper levels of prayer were restricted to monasteries.



Similar, except that a neoconservative opposes change and unlike a conservative, who resist change, a neoconservative wants to move backwards.
A fundamentalist is one who takes what he has read literally, and accepts it so blindly, that he has stopped listening, especially to God who speaks within.



Actually, the first time I heard it, was from George Weigel, in the forward of his book, "Witness to Hope."

Apparently the concept has been around since the council of Trent.



Jim
[/quote]

[img]http://yourargumentisinvalid.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/node/fish.jpg[/img]

[JimR-OCDS]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='15 December 2009 - 12:06 PM' timestamp='1260893186' post='2020959']
I have a feeling that the deepest relationship we can have with Christ is through receiving what is truly and substantially his Body and Blood in the Eucharist.

In any case, you said that contemplative prayer is the only way to have a relationship with Christ, and that was blatantly wrong.
[/quote]


My mistake in how I worded it. Contemplation, is the only way toward union with Christ.

However, contemplative prayer opens us to contemplation.

Jim

[Winchester]

You bought a bunch of commas at Sam's Club and you're trying to get rid of them before the expiration date, aren't you?

[JimR-OCDS]

I can see the level of conversation has digressed to the sophomoric level.

I guess these things happen during finals.


Jim

[Winchester]

Somebody's mad.

[Socrates]

[quote name='JimR-OCDS' date='15 December 2009 - 09:38 AM' timestamp='1260887939' post='2020910']
Socrates



Actually, my information comes from Catholic Historians.

One good source is; Triumph: The Power and the Glory of the Catholic Church, by H.W Crocker III.[/quote]
Read it, good book. Though Mr. Crocker definitely doesn't share your dim view of medieval Christendom.


[quote]I think the Church, that is its members, are less sinful than those of the past. Take an honest look at the past history of the Church, and you'll see, we today live in very mild, tolerant times.
[/quote]
Only if you restrict your definition of sin to "intolerance" and "harshness."
You simply choose to overlook more politically-correct sins.

[quote]I've said plenty positive about the Church. As I stated, the Church has evolved Spiritually, and is far better than it was in the past. The rich spirituality of the past is not only more accessible to average Catholics, but also better understood because good Catholic writers were able to translate the writings into understandable language.
[/quote]
Yes, this is clear by how today the average Catholic is clueless on basic faith and morals, doesn't believe in the Real Presence, is unsure of Christ's divinity, rarely attends mass, has never touched a bible, thinks other religions are just as valid as the Catholic Faith, never goes to confession, thinks abortion is sometimes acceptable, and thinks fornication, contraception, divorce, and homosexual behavior are all a-ok.
A sure sign of spiritual progress.

[quote]Yup, always have been saints and sinners, but the institutional policies are not nearly as barbaric as in the past. Also, I think God is actually producing more saints today than ever.[/quote]
Maybe, maybe not. Since God alone has access to the state of everyone's souls, He alone knows, so it's pointless to argue.

[quote]It seems to me, you're the one who is more negative about the Church of today, and have some dreamy ideas about the past, that aren't real.
[/quote]
I just have not seen evidence that people are continuously spiritually evolving for the better, nor that the modern era is spiritually the best and least sinful in the history of the Church.
And there's plenty good happening in the Church today. But it's coming from faithful orthodox Catholics, not from liberal dissenters.

[quote]OH, there was plenty of sexual abuse in the past, especially when the Church was at the height of power throughout Europe, were people feared the Clergy. Do you think humans suspended their inordinate desires and didn't take advantage of their positions?
[/quote]
You still have given nothing to back up your claim that sexual abuse was uniformly worse in the past, nor that there is less of it in modern times than ever before.


[quote]Evil mindsets don't hold to political labels such as progressive or conservative. Give men power, and their will be abuse. In all the cases of sexual abuse committed by Catholic priest, it was the level of the authority and respect they held, that allowed them to take advantage of the innocent. Most of the
sexual abuse happened over 20 years ago. Many of the priest were in the seminary before Vatican II, so don't attempt to place the blame there.



You seem to have a belief that sin is limited to progressives. Cardinal Law was considered a conservative, when he came to the Archdiocese of Boston. He, wrote a glowing letter of approval, in order to get Fr Shanely transferred out of his dioces and out to San Bernardino California. Fr. Shanely was a know pedophile. Shanely was convicted and is in jail today. Cardinal Law was removed from his post and placed in charge of a shrine.[/quote]
I never claimed sin is limited to "progressives."
I'm simply countering your blaming of "fundamentalists" and "conservatives" for everything that ails the Church.

And while they aren't the only ones who sin, it's certainly true that "progressive Catholics" are the ones actively promoting sexual sin through their dissident teachings on sexuality.

And no, I don't blame Vatican II, but moral laxity in seminaries, and the growth of a homosexual subculture in the clergy.


[quote]It has everything to do with my point. Spiritual growth only comes through contemplation. Without contemplative prayer, there is no relationship with Jesus Christ, and no transformation of the soul.
This isn't my idea, but that of the Doctors of the Church, like St. Teresa of Avila.



I believe that there is a lot more prayer that is done well today, than in the past. I'm not talking about reeling off prayer by rote, which was common in the past, but deeper levels of prayer. Contemplatives and especially Charismatics were unheard of before Vatican II. Deeper levels of prayer were restricted to monasteries.[/quote]
Teresa of Avila came long before Vatican II.

And if the prayer life of Catholics today were so much better than in the past, it's doubtful the Church would be seeing so many of its current scandals, nor that there'd be so much lack of faith and morality. I've heard plenty of very orthodox "conservative" priests say that lack of prayer is at the root of most of the Church's problems.




[quote]Similar, except that a neoconservative opposes change and unlike a conservative, who resist change, a neoconservative wants to move backwards.
A fundamentalist is one who takes what he has read literally, and accepts it so blindly, that he has stopped listening, especially to God who speaks within.



Actually, the first time I heard it, was from George Weigel, in the forward of his book, "Witness to Hope."

Apparently the concept has been around since the council of Trent.



Jim

[/quote]
A repeat of the same vague, evasive cr[font="Arial"]a[/font]p you've given before. If "fundamentalism" and "neoconservatism" are such big problems in the Church, you could name some names, or at least some concrete issues/positions.
Until then, I'll have to dismiss your posts as so much hot air.

[JimR-OCDS]

Socrates

[quote]
Teresa of Avila came long before Vatican II.
[/quote]

And had it been left up the Church officials of her day, she would've been silenced and John of the Cross would've died in prison, with neither of them writing a word.

God had other plans however, just as he did in guiding Pope John XXXIII to call Vatican II.

[quote]
And if the prayer life of Catholics today were so much better than in the past, it's doubtful the Church would be seeing so many of its current scandals, nor that there'd be so much lack of faith and morality. I've heard plenty of very orthodox "conservative" priests say that lack of prayer is at the root of most of the Church's problems.
[/quote]


The scandals are from a minority in the Church, and have always been there, except now in our day and age they weren't able to keep them in the closet.

However, I believe this is bringing a positive thing in the Church, in that the evil is being purged and people of deep spirituality are emerging.

Pope John XXXIII prayed for a 2nd Pentecost, I believe it happened when the Charismatic Movement first came about, which brought many people back to the Church, but also moved them along the spiritual road to contemplative prayer.

Before we had more people attending Mass each Sunday, out of obligation. But today, although we have less, more attend for purer reasons.

[quote]
A repeat of the same vague, evasive cr[font="Arial"]a[/font]p you've given before. If "fundamentalism" and "neoconservatism" are such big problems in the Church, you could name some names, or at least some concrete issues/positions.
[/quote]

The problems of neoconservativism in the Catholic Church are only at the beginning stages, and hopefully, will not grow further. When such groups divide instead of unite, when they reflect a rigid self-righteousness that sends people running for their lives, rather than being brought to Christ, we'll have a well disciplined religion, but one that places heavy yokes on people, rather than bringing them love and compassion as Jesus taught.

Oh, but as long as we have Mass in Latin and Gregorian Chant, all will be fine. [img]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/public/style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif[/img]

Jim

[Winchester]

[quote name='JimR-OCDS' date='15 December 2009 - 03:37 PM' timestamp='1260909439' post='2021154']

The problems of neoconservativism in the Catholic Church are only at the beginning stages, and hopefully, will not grow further. When such groups divide instead of unite, [/quote]
34 Do not think that I came to send peace upon earth: I came not to send peace, but the sword. 35 For I came to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.

35 "I came to set a man at variance"... Not that this was the end or design of the coming of our Saviour; but that his coming and his doctrine would have this effect, by reason of the obstinate resistance that many would make, and of their persecuting all such as should adhere to him.

[url="http://www.drbo.org/chapter/47010.htm"]Douay![/url]

[quote]when they reflect a rigid self-righteousness [/quote]
What's up, kettle?