Pope St. Gregory On The Muslims

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' date='11 December 2009 - 12:31 PM' timestamp='1260559861' post='2018547']
From what I recall during the Pontificate of Gregory VII the Koran had not even been translated to Latin or any Western language, nor had the Creed Apo posted in another thread. So he had no hard evidence on which to base his statements only generalities and claims.
[/quote]
Yeah. Besides, the letter was not meant to be a dogmatic treatise, but was simply part of the pope's diplomatic correspondence.

[JimR-OCDS]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' date='11 December 2009 - 03:31 PM' timestamp='1260559861' post='2018547']
From what I recall during the Pontificate of Gregory VII the Koran had not even been translated to Latin or any Western language, nor had the Creed Apo posted in another thread. So he had no hard evidence on which to base his statements only generalities and claims.
[/quote]


You're presuming that Pope Gregory couldn't read Arabic or that he had no people who could translate
for him?


Jim

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='JimR-OCDS' date='11 December 2009 - 03:51 PM' timestamp='1260564675' post='2018606']
You're presuming that Pope Gregory couldn't read Arabic or that he had no people who could translate
for him?


Jim
[/quote]

There is no evidence that he did read Arabic, and as I've already stated NO the Koran was not translated by anyone in the west until much later. Also note translations took years to complete. Your question is an presumption based on no evidence what so ever.

[Pomak]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' date='12 December 2009 - 07:56 AM' timestamp='1260564990' post='2018611']
There is no evidence that he did read Arabic, and as I've already stated NO the Koran was not translated by anyone in the west until much later. Also note translations took years to complete. Your question is an presumption based on no evidence what so ever.
[/quote]

When did Sicily fall? Most likely there was a bunch of stuff there that was translated.

PS. I found it rather interesting that this was sourced to 10 years before the first crusade was launched.

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='JimR-OCDS' date='11 December 2009 - 03:51 PM' timestamp='1260564675' post='2018606']
You're presuming that Pope Gregory couldn't read Arabic or that he had no people who could translate
for him?


Jim
[/quote]

Knight is right. It would have been every unlikely for him (or any other Medieval Western European) to have been able to read Arabic.


[quote name='Pomak' date='12 December 2009 - 12:24 AM' timestamp='1260595464' post='2018884']
PS. I found it rather interesting that this was sourced to 10 years before the first crusade was launched.
[/quote]

I'm very interested in the Crusades.

[Didacus]

[quote name='Pomak' date='11 December 2009 - 10:33 AM' timestamp='1260545636' post='2018381']
1085, very interesting time.
[/quote]

It was a good year for wine if I remember right...

[JimR-OCDS]

Resurrexi

[quote]
Knight is right. It would have been every unlikely for him (or any other Medieval Western European) to have been able to read Arabic.
[/quote]

What about Arab Christians from Palestine? Do you think the Pope might've had Christians from the Holy Land to translate for him, who knew Arabic and perhaps may have even been converts from Islam?

How do you suppose King Richard the Lion Hearted, communicated with the Sultan?


Jim

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='JimR-OCDS' date='14 December 2009 - 08:55 AM' timestamp='1260806114' post='2020247']
Resurrexi



What about Arab Christians from Palestine? Do you think the Pope might've had Christians from the Holy Land to translate for him, who knew Arabic and perhaps may have even been converts from Islam?

How do you suppose King Richard the Lion Hearted, communicated with the Sultan?


Jim
[/quote]
There is no historical evidence that shows that Pope Gregory VII ever had access to or read the Quran in a language that he understood. The burden of proof is upon you to show that he read it.

[JimR-OCDS]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='14 December 2009 - 12:02 PM' timestamp='1260806555' post='2020251']
There is no historical evidence that shows that Pope Gregory VII ever had access to or read the Quran in a language that he understood. The burden of proof is upon you to show that he read it.
[/quote]


I beleive the burden of proof is on you to show that he didn't have access to the Quran.

I don't know if he did or didn't, but by guess is, that he did.

Jim

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='JimR-OCDS' date='14 December 2009 - 09:29 AM' timestamp='1260808156' post='2020264']
I beleive the burden of proof is on you to show that he didn't have access to the Quran.

I don't know if he did or didn't, but by guess is, that he did.

Jim
[/quote]
No, I cannot prove a negative. If you believe that he read the Quran . . . prove it.

Guessing is not evidence.

Edited December 14, 2009 by Apotheoun

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='JimR-OCDS' date='14 December 2009 - 10:55 AM' timestamp='1260806114' post='2020247']
Resurrexi



What about Arab Christians from Palestine? Do you think the Pope might've had Christians from the Holy Land to translate for him, who knew Arabic and perhaps may have even been converts from Islam?

How do you suppose King Richard the Lion Hearted, communicated with the Sultan?


Jim
[/quote]

Jim, I don't care if St. Gregory VII was able to read Arabic, to be honest. As I stated before, it isn't very likely that he could. And as Apo stated below, the burden of proof is on you.

[JimR-OCDS]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='14 December 2009 - 12:35 PM' timestamp='1260808530' post='2020269']
No, I cannot prove a negative. If you believe that he read the Quran . . . prove it.

Guessing is not evidence.
[/quote]


Ah, but I'm not the one who made a definitive statement, i.e. Pope Gregory could not read Arabic nor did he have translators who could.

I merely stated that it is my "GUESS" that he may have had translators who could. I don't know for sure one way or another, but logic leads me to believe in the possibility that he was able to learn about the Koran, through translators or perhaps he did know some Arabic.

After all, Islam had only been repelled from the city of Paris, 100 years before, and was still a growing new religion. It would make sense to me, he, like Pope's who preceded him, would've learned something about it.



Jim

[KnightofChrist]

Fact: The first translation of the Koran into a Western language, which was Latin was in 1143. Pope St. Gregory VII made his statement in 1085.

[JimR-OCDS]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' date='14 December 2009 - 05:12 PM' timestamp='1260825160' post='2020550']
Fact: The first translation of the Koran into a Western language, which was Latin was in 1143. Pope St. Gregory VII made his statement in 1085.
[/quote]


But this doesn't prove that he didn't have the Koran read to him by some one who could read Arabic.

It also doesn't prove he didn't have a knowledge of Arabic.

Also, that would be the first published translation of the Koran. For all we know, pieces or all of it were being translated for the Pope exclusively before 1143.

Pope's know a lot about other religions. Pope Benedict XVI knows Hinduism and Taoism pretty well, from what I've seen in his writings.

Jim

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='JimR-OCDS' date='14 December 2009 - 04:28 PM' timestamp='1260826126' post='2020572']
But this doesn't prove that he didn't have the Koran read to him by some one who could read Arabic.

It also doesn't prove he didn't have a knowledge of Arabic.

Also, that would be the first published translation of the Koran. For all we know, pieces or all of it were being translated for the Pope exclusively before 1143.

Pope's know a lot about other religions. Pope Benedict XVI knows Hinduism and Taoism pretty well, from what I've seen in his writings.

Jim
[/quote]

YOU HAVE NO PROOF. End of story.