Why Are You A Christian?

[Drew-Memphis]

[quote name='Pomak' date='11 December 2009 - 12:47 AM' timestamp='1260510433' post='2018229']
Then why did god create us with a mind that can not understand his nature?
[/quote]

Isn't that why they call it faith?

[Pomak]

[quote name='Drew-Memphis' date='11 December 2009 - 04:49 PM' timestamp='1260510562' post='2018231']
Isn't that why they call it faith?
[/quote]
I am not sure if you guys share this, but Imam Al Ghazali commented that for a person to have iman(faith) he must have certainty. So how does a person have certainty if he or she doesn't truly understand or comprehend the fundamental dogma of his church.

[Hussain]

[quote name='mortify' date='11 December 2009 - 01:40 AM' timestamp='1260510007' post='2018225']
When understanding the Trinity its important to define what is being stated. We don't believe that the number 1 somehow equals 3. We believe 3 *Persons* fully possess the same infinite Divine *Nature.* There is nothing in creation that perfectly represents what God is so it is impossible for our minds to grasp it, although we can understand it to a certain extent. The theologians proposed looking at the human which is the highest of God's creatures. When the intellect seeks to know something it creates an image of it in the mind, but for humans even when that knowledge is directed at ourselves, the image is imperfect. For God however, His knowledge of Himself is infinite and perfect, and this Knowledge does not merely exist as an "image" but is so perfect and infinite, that it exists as a Person that is the perfect likeness of God in all ways except by it's origin, namely the distinction between Thinker and Thought. Now we just went over the first power of the Soul whitch is the intellect, but the next power is the will which loves. It is true that God love's His creation, but for that infinite and perfect love to be directed towards finite and imperfect creatures almost seems unjust. This infinite and perfect love is directed that perfect and infinite knowledge of God, which reflects God perfectly, and this Love also exists as a Third Person. In other words, the Thinker and Thought love eachother perfectly and infinitely, and this Love exists as a Third Person. All three Persons possess the same infinite Divine Nature, and therefore they are one in being, and therefore monotheism is preserved. The distinction is in the procession, thus the Thinker is the Father, the Font of Divinity, originating from no one... the Thought, or Logos (Word), is the Son who proceeds from the Father but also shares in the procession of the Holy Spirit, Who is pure receptive Divinity.

This is my imperfect explanation of a magnificent piece of revelation that has been thought over by countless minds. It is impossible to have come to this understanding of God outside of revelation. Now just because something is mysterious is no reason to deny it... any Muslim should call to mind why Abu Bakr was given the title as-saddiq.


Glory be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit. As it was in the beginning is now and forever will be, one God forever, amen.
[/quote]

Thanks for the explanation. Now how do you understand the divine nature, as you put it, of Jesus, pbuh? Was he divine in full? Were the hairs on his head divine? His nails that he cut off? Or did he give up some of his Godly nature when coming down to earth? You said he came forth from the Father, so it follows that he has a beginning? Does God have a beginning? If so, then there wasn't always Jesus, pbuh? If you tell me only Jesus, pbuh, has a beginning that came forth from the Father then you're saying he's a different divine entity, how does this fit with Monotheistic theology?

[mortify]

[quote name='Pomak' date='11 December 2009 - 12:59 AM' timestamp='1260511166' post='2018236']
I am not sure if you guys share this, but Imam Al Ghazali commented that for a person to have iman(faith) he must have certainty. So how does a person have certainty if he or she doesn't truly understand or comprehend the fundamental dogma of his church.
[/quote]

The certainty we have is from the Source. God revealed it, we believe it, that settles it. I honestly don't understand your difficulty with this, Muslims acknowledge there are mysterious things in the Quran, i.e. the aya saying Allah established himself on the throne, what does this mean exactly? How did he establish? And besides, don't you believe Allah is incomprehensible? To say no is to reduce Allah to a created being.

[Drew-Memphis]

[quote name='Pomak' date='11 December 2009 - 12:59 AM' timestamp='1260511166' post='2018236']
I am not sure if you guys share this, but Imam Al Ghazali commented that for a person to have iman(faith) he must have certainty. So how does a person have certainty if he or she doesn't truly understand or comprehend the fundamental dogma of his church.
[/quote]

Allow me to present the definition of faith from Merriam Webster.

"belief and trust in and loyalty to God, belief in the traditional doctrines of a religion, [u][b]firm belief in something for which there is no proof, complete trust[/b][/u]"

[Pomak]

[quote name='mortify' date='11 December 2009 - 05:12 PM' timestamp='1260511940' post='2018240']
The certainty we have is from the Source. God revealed it, we believe it, that settles it. I honestly don't understand your difficulty with this, Muslims acknowledge there are mysterious things in the Quran, i.e. the aya saying Allah established himself on the throne, what does this mean exactly? How did he establish? And besides, don't you believe Allah is incomprehensible? To say no is to reduce Allah to a created being.
[/quote]

Its a logic argument. If one claims he is following something logical, saying "i believe beacause god said so" is anything but rational. But this is about you guys and I won't argue about tawhid here.

As for the Throne verse, its metaphorical. That is the Sunni position. (same with the verses talking about god's face and god's hands).

We believe that god is not comparable to creation, in other words that he does not look like anything that he creates. But we have a lot of information of his attributes.

[Pomak]

[quote name='Drew-Memphis' date='11 December 2009 - 05:20 PM' timestamp='1260512430' post='2018242']
Allow me to present the definition of faith from Merriam Webster.

"belief and trust in and loyalty to God, belief in the traditional doctrines of a religion, [u][b]firm belief in something for which there is no proof, complete trust[/b][/u]"
[/quote]
What about all those "spiritual but not religious" do they not also believe, in something? Aren't atheists also believers in non existence of divine entities?

[Hussain]

[quote name='mortify' date='11 December 2009 - 02:12 AM' timestamp='1260511940' post='2018240']
The certainty we have is from the Source. God revealed it, we believe it, that settles it. I honestly don't understand your difficulty with this, Muslims acknowledge there are mysterious things in the Quran, i.e. the aya saying Allah established himself on the throne, what does this mean exactly? How did he establish? And besides, don't you believe Allah is incomprehensible? To say no is to reduce Allah to a created being.
[/quote]

[font="Verdana"][size="2"]I think you're diverting from the original question. The original question was not regarding the Essence of God, as that is incomprehensible, and to know God is to realize that, as He revealed that ''[color="#000000"]Nothing is like Him''. The question is about the Oneness of God. How can you believe in His Oneness when you cannot grasp the imperfect explanations of men with regard to the Trinity, while God himself did not explain something that is so crucial in ones faith, and left everyone in mystery? For Muslims God said it in no more than four verses; "[/color][/size][/font][font="Verdana"][size="2"]Say: He is Allah, the One and Only! Allah, the Eternal, Absolute; He begetteth not nor is He begotten. And there is none like unto Him[color="#008000"][size="-1"]." [color="#000000"]Do you agree with these four verses? [/color][/size][/color][/size][/font][font="Verdana"][size="-1"][color="#008000"]
[/color][/size][/font]

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='Pomak' date='11 December 2009 - 12:47 AM' timestamp='1260510433' post='2018229']
Then why did god create us with a mind that can not understand his nature?
[/quote]

Then we would be like God - or we would be God.

Finite beings cannot possibly grasp the nature of an infinite Being.

[mortify]

[quote name='Hussain' date='11 December 2009 - 01:09 AM' timestamp='1260511772' post='2018239']
Thanks for the explanation. Now how do you understand the divine nature, as you put it, of Jesus, pbuh? Was he divine in full? Were the hairs on his head divine? His nails that he cut off?[/quote]

How can you reject Christianity if you don't know what we believe? We do not believe that His humanity = Divinity, as you suggest when you ask whether material things like hair and nails were Divine. God is a Spirit, i.e immaterial, and therefore He can't be confused with created things, that would be pantheism.

What we believe is this: Jesus is a Divine Person with *two* *distinct* though perfectly *united* natures, one human the other Divine. Thus He really possessed a flesh and could experience what other humans experience, i.e. hunger, thirst, pain, etc. But He is also truly Divine, and therefore He could forgive people their sins, perform miracles by His own power, and rightfully claim to the same honor that is given to the Father, which would be shirk if He were not who He claimed to be.


[quote]Or did he give up some of his Godly nature when coming down to earth?[/quote]

His Divine nature was fully there but He took on the *role* of a servant. To use an analogy, when you close your eyes you still possess the power to see even though you willingly decide not to use the power of sight.
[quote]
You said he came forth from the Father, so it follows that he has a beginning? Does God have a beginning? If so, then there wasn't always Jesus, pbuh?
[/quote]

You are thinking in human terms. For a human to become a father time must elapse, the boy must first mature into a man, and then the man must find a spouse. But God is beyond time, He is pure Act and there is no change in God, so there was no "beginning"... there was no time when the Son did not exist. The Son *eternally* proceeds from the Father, and thus both Persons are eternal, always existing simultaneously, and this goes the same for the Holy Spirit.

[quote]If you tell me only Jesus, pbuh, has a beginning that came forth from the Father then you're saying he's a different divine entity, how does this fit with Monotheistic theology?[/quote]

Say you have three people. All three people share a *similar* human nature, but they are three different entities because each possesses their own independent and separate human nature. In other words, all three persons have the power to use an intellect, but each has their own separate intellect, their own separate will, there own separate memory, etc. and thus we say they are three separate people, or three separate entities. But this is not true of the Trinity. All Three Persons [i]do not [/i]share similar though independent natures, instead they all *possess* the SAME Divine Nature. In other words, the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit all possess the SAME Divine Will (again, it's not three Wills that are in accord with eachother, but the SAME Will), they possess the SAME knowledge, etc. and thus although they are three Persons, They are Bearers of the SAME Nature and therefore *ONE IN BEING*. This is why the Trinity is a form of Monotheism and not Polytheism.


Glory be to Christ, Amen.

[mortify]

[quote name='Hussain' date='11 December 2009 - 01:26 AM' timestamp='1260512761' post='2018246']
[font="Verdana"][size="2"]I think you're diverting from the original question. The original question was not regarding the Essence of God, as that is incomprehensible, and to know God is to realize that, as He revealed that ''[color="#000000"]Nothing is like Him''. The question is about the Oneness of God. How can you believe in His Oneness when you cannot grasp the imperfect explanations of men with regard to the Trinity, while God himself did not explain something that is so crucial in ones faith, and left everyone in mystery? For Muslims God said it in no more than four verses; "[/color][/size][/font][font="Verdana"][size="2"]Say: He is Allah, the One and Only! Allah, the Eternal, Absolute; He begetteth not nor is He begotten. And there is none like unto Him[color="#008000"][size="-1"]." [color="#000000"]Do you agree with these four verses? [/color][/size][/color][/size][/font][font="Verdana"][size="-1"][color="#008000"]
[/color][/size][/font]
[/quote]

I can believe it because God has revealed that He is Three Persons in One Being. Keep in mind this is a revealed truth revealing God's Inner Being, it's not something we can access through our natural powers... our natural powers can come to realize that God is One, Omnipotent, Omniscent, etc, but the Trinity is not something that our mind could conclude naturally. Mystery is a sign of revealed truth, a religion that makes everything about God comprehensible is clearly a man made religion, since anything pertaining to God's inner being will be beyong man's natural capacity.

[mortify]

[quote name='Pomak' date='11 December 2009 - 01:21 AM' timestamp='1260512482' post='2018243']
Its a logic argument. If one claims he is following something logical, saying "i believe beacause god said so" is anything but rational. But this is about you guys and I won't argue about tawhid here.[/quote]

Is it rational to believe a man travelled from Mecca to Jerusalem and finally to Heaven on a horse with a female face, and all this within a blink of an eye? Or do you believe it on the basis of who was saying it?

Edited December 11, 2009 by mortify

[tinytherese]

From the Concordance of Catechism of the Catholic Church

"[b]27.[/b] [b]What does it mean in practice for a person to believe in God?[/b]

It means to adhere to God himself, entrusting oneself to him and giving assent to all the truths which god has revealed because God is Truth. It means to believe in one God in three Persons, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

[b]28.[/b] [b]What are the characteristics of faith?[/b]

Faith is the supernatural virtue which is [i]necessary[/i] for salvation. It is a [i]free gift[/i] of God and is accesible to all who humbly seek it. The act of faith is a [i]human act[/i], that is, an act of the intellect of a person- prompted by the will moved by God-who freely assents to divine truth. Faith is also certain because it is founded on the Word of God; it [i]works[/i] "through charity" (Galatians 5:6); and it [i]continually grows[/i] through listening to the Word of God and through prayer. It is, even now, a [i]foretaste[/i] of the joys of heaven.

[b]29. Why is there no contracition between faith and science?[/b]

Though faith is above reason, there can never be a contradiction between faith and science because both originate in god. It is God himself who gives to us the light both of reason and of faith.

[color="#2E8B57"][i]'I believe, in order to understand; and I understand, the better to believe.'[/i][/color] (Saint Augustine)

WE BELIEVE

[b]30. Why is faith a personal act, and at the same time ecclesial?[/b]

Faith is a personal act insofar as it is the free response of the human person to god who reveals himself. But at the same time it is an ecclesial act which expresses itself in the proclamation, 'We believe.' It is in fact the Church that believes: and thus by the grace of the Holy Spirit precedes, engenders and nourishes the faith of each Christian. For this reason the Church is Mother and Teacher.

[color="#2E8B57"][i]'No one can have God as Father who does not have the Church as Mother.' (Saint Cyprian)[/i][/color]


[b]31. Why are the formulas of faith important?[/b]

The formulas of faith are important because they permit one to express, assimilate, celebrate, and share together with others the truths of the faith through a common language" (11 and 12).


As the CCCC also says, humans can come to know God through reason alone, but we can not completely know Him as He is without having an intimate relationship with Him. In a sense, this is His way of leading us to Him. For we human beings are limited and imperfect, yet through having a relationship with Him and by being in His Church we can really get Him.

[Hussain]

[quote name='mortify' date='11 December 2009 - 02:40 AM' timestamp='1260513650' post='2018253']
I can believe it because God has revealed that He is Three Persons in One Being. Keep in mind this is a revealed truth revealing God's Inner Being, it's not something we can access through our natural powers... our natural powers can come to realize that God is One, Omnipotent, Omniscent, etc, but the Trinity is not something that our mind could conclude naturally. Mystery is a sign of revealed truth, a religion that makes everything about God comprehensible is clearly a man made religion, since anything pertaining to God's inner being will be beyong man's natural capacity.
[/quote]
I never claimed I fully comprehend the Essence of God, or His 'inner being' as you put it. In fact I posted the verses where God revealed that "Nothing is like Him", so how can I be a Muslim and not believe in this verse? Basically, it is a realization by negation, i.e. we know God by knowing there is nothing like Him, but this is a different topic. We are talking about His Oneness vs. the Trinity.

What I do claim is that I comprehend His Oneness with no ambiguity whatsoever. Do you?

[Pomak]

[quote name='mortify' date='11 December 2009 - 05:43 PM' timestamp='1260513828' post='2018254']
Is it rational to believe a man travelled from Mecca to Jerusalem and finally to Heaven on a horse with a female face, and all this within a blink of an eye? Or do you believe it on the basis of who was saying it?
[/quote]

Indeed it is, because after that journey he came back with information that no man could know.