We Can Disagree And Still Be Respectful

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='bhrhrahraa' date='10 December 2009 - 12:39 PM' timestamp='1260473953' post='2017707']
How do you explain the billions of people following a "false religion?" Brainwashed? [/quote]
How can you explain the millions of people who follow the teachings of Joseph Smith? Clearly, millions of people will believe almost anything if they like what they hear.

[Maggyie]

I'm so depressed by this. Clearly both Islam and Christianity contain people who don't know how to conduct themselves as guests or as hosts. I'm assuming their approaches would be totally different face to face, I assume they would't say to a Muslim they met for the first time at a cocktail party, "if only Islam were a growth on someone's face, then it could be gotten rid of." Because people are supposed to have manners. And to pass it off as "well, I'm just speaking the hard Truth" is a horrible abuse of our faith. The Gospel offers a challenge to everyone, it is not an excuse to go around being nasty to people.

Edited December 10, 2009 by Maggie

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='Maggie' date='10 December 2009 - 03:13 PM' timestamp='1260476003' post='2017747']
The Gospel offers a challenge to everyone, it is not an excuse to go around being nasty to people.
[/quote]

As Apo has already stated, the Christians arguing with the Muslims are attacking Islam. The Muslims arguing with the Christians are using personal attacks against one's character.

[Apotheoun]

I must admit that I have been taken aback by the number of Catholic Phatmassers who speak about Islam as if it were just a [i]sui juris[/i] Church within the Catholic Church.

It is one thing to love Muslims, as religiously misguided as they are, but quite another to express love for and defend an ideology (i.e. Islam) that involves the explicit denial of the dogmas of the Trinity and the Incarnation.

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='10 December 2009 - 03:21 PM' timestamp='1260476496' post='2017750']
I must admit that I have been taken aback by the number of Catholic Phatmassers who speak about Islam as if it were just a [i]sui juris[/i] Church within the Catholic Church.

It is one thing to love Muslims, as religiously misguided as they are, but quite another to express love for and defend an ideology (i.e. Islam) that involves the explicit denial of the dogmas of the Trinity and the Incarnation.
[/quote]

We live in a world where Men can not be Men anymore, and Adults can not speak as Adults with reason. Where speaking truth with conviction is slammed anytime one dares speak up. Everything is got to be I feel, I think, maybe, like, sorta, kinda, question marks on statements and other such nonsense.

SPEAK WITH CONVICTION
By Taylor Mali

Watch it here... http://www.vimeo.com/3829682

In case you hadn't noticed,
it has somehow become uncool
to sound like you know what you're talking about?
Or believe strongly in what you're saying?
Invisible question marks and parenthetical (you know?)'s
have been attaching themselves to the ends of our sentences?
Even when those sentences aren't, like, questions? You know?

Declarative sentences - so-called
because they used to, like, DECLARE things to be true
as opposed to other things which were, like, not -
have been infected by a totally hip
and tragically cool interrogative tone? You know?
Like, don't think I'm uncool just because I've noticed this;
this is just like the word on the street, you know?
It's like what I've heard?
I have nothing personally invested in my own opinions, okay?
I'm just inviting you to join me in my uncertainty?

What has happened to our conviction?
Where are the limbs out on which we once walked?
Have they been, like, chopped down
with the rest of the rain forest?
Or do we have, like, nothing to say?
Has society become so, like, totally . . .
I mean absolutely . . . You know?
That we've just gotten to the point where it's just, like . . .
whatever!

And so actually our disarticulation . . . ness
is just a clever sort of . . . thing
to disguise the fact that we've become
the most aggressively inarticulate generation
to come along since . . .
you know, a long, long time ago!

I entreat you, I implore you, I exhort you,
I challenge you: To speak with conviction.
To say what you believe in a manner that bespeaks
the determination with which you believe it.
Because contrary to the wisdom of the bumper sticker,
it is not enough these days to simply QUESTION AUTHORITY.
You have to speak with it, too.

[Nihil Obstat]

I'd prefer if we stuck within a very narrow interpretation of 'on topic' in this thread in particular.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='10 December 2009 - 01:54 PM' timestamp='1260478461' post='2017768']
I'd prefer if we stuck within a very narrow interpretation of 'on topic' in this thread in particular.
[/quote]
Most of the posts have been on topic . . . unless you are just expecting people to re-post what you said.

Edited December 10, 2009 by Apotheoun

[Nihil Obstat]

That would get boring.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='10 December 2009 - 02:03 PM' timestamp='1260479037' post='2017775']
That would get boring.
[/quote]
Yes, it would.

[extempers]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='10 December 2009 - 03:02 PM' timestamp='1260475324' post='2017739']
If someone posted saying that black people are sub-human, I'd be more than happy to tell them exactly why they're an idiot. That position hasn't got a leg to stand on. The truth is so obvious that any thinking person can see it, based on both viewpoints being presented.

Personally, I'm a big fan of free speech. I'd prefer things to be solved by people having respectful, public debates rather than some authority telling us what we can and cannot say.


That being said, if you really find a post offensive, by all means report it. You're a member on Phatmass and you enjoy the same rights as any other member. Our mods are really awesome, but they're not omniscient, and they sometimes don't see offensive posts because of the sheer volume of posts in a single day.
[/quote]

So are you ok with a naked Jesus made of chocolate on display for "art"?
I'm not (and yes it happened). Freedom of speech has its limits.

There are debates to be had and then there are debates that should be shunned. You should not give a medium to such hatred.
And if I'm to accept your premise, that you publicly debate them, then where are the debates?
Rather you have topics with hate and lies being propagated with little to no argument against them. Even worse, you have posts praising bigoted posts!


Where is the outrage? Where is the condemnation?
It's amazing how Muslims are asked to do this and do that and bend over backwards for the sake of speaking out against that which is "bad", but no call upon the Christians.

I spent over an hour discussing the complexity of the Imam Anwar case and I'm being called out because of it and yet you have "idiotic" posts talking about growths on Prophet Muhammad (Peace be upon him!) and instead of outrage it is met with praise.

I specifically quoted both posts and instead of moderation, I was told this is a colorful site.
Yah very colorful...

But it's not my site, I will not report on this forum. You guys are free to do whatever you like. I'm just glad we as Muslims on MM have much more control and respect.




[quote name='homeschoolmom' date='10 December 2009 - 03:02 PM' timestamp='1260475343' post='2017740']
I'm sorry you don't like the way we do things here. Our webmaster, dUSt, has given the moderators instruction to be as "hands off" as possible. Our edits are few and far between.
[/quote]
Hands off bigotry?
Not exactly a Christian principle.

It's not like I'm asking you to be respectful, but how about editing statements that one wouldn't be allowed to say even in a very liberal and open minded university class.
Is that really that much too ask?

Allahu Alim,
What else is to be expected.

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='10 December 2009 - 03:54 PM' timestamp='1260478461' post='2017768']
I'd prefer if we stuck within a very narrow interpretation of 'on topic' in this thread in particular.
[/quote]

I was speaking in relation to the topic, We Can Disagree And Still Be Respectful. Yes we can, yet there as been a on going theme of protest against Apo, HCF, Soc, DominicanSoul and myself because we speak truth with [i]conviction, in a manner that bespeaks the determination with which we believe it.[/i]

That unfounded protest found its way in this tread if that was your intent or not.

Edited December 10, 2009 by KnightofChrist

[MissyP89]

Even if this is the debate table, I think Nihil was trying to speak to charity here.

Speak softly and carry a big stick.

[dominicansoul]

[quote name='Maggie' date='10 December 2009 - 03:13 PM' timestamp='1260476003' post='2017747']
I'm so depressed by this. Clearly both Islam and Christianity contain people who don't know how to conduct themselves as guests or as hosts. I'm assuming their approaches would be totally different face to face, I assume they would't say to a Muslim they met for the first time at a cocktail party, "if only Islam were a growth on someone's face, then it could be gotten rid of." Because people are supposed to have manners. And to pass it off as "well, I'm just speaking the hard Truth" is a horrible abuse of our faith. The Gospel offers a challenge to everyone, it is not an excuse to go around being nasty to people.
[/quote]
...then maybe you should stop criticizing those who don't agree with you...

Edited December 10, 2009 by dominicansoul

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='extempers' date='10 December 2009 - 03:05 PM' timestamp='1260479115' post='2017777']
So are you ok with a naked Jesus made of chocolate on display for "art"?
I'm not (and yes it happened). Freedom of speech has its limits.

There are debates to be had and then there are debates that should be shunned. You should not give a medium to such hatred.
And if I'm to accept your premise, that you publicly debate them, then where are the debates?
Rather you have topics with hate and lies being propagated with little to no argument against them. Even worse, you have posts praising bigoted posts!


Where is the outrage? Where is the condemnation?
It's amazing how Muslims are asked to do this and do that and bend over backwards for the sake of speaking out against that which is "bad", but no call upon the Christians.

I spent over an hour discussing the complexity of the Imam Anwar case and I'm being called out because of it and yet you have "idiotic" posts talking about growths on Prophet Muhammad (Peace be upon him!) and instead of outrage it is met with praise.

I specifically quoted both posts and instead of moderation, I was told this is a colorful site.
Yah very colorful...

But it's not my site, I will not report on this forum. You guys are free to do whatever you like. I'm just glad we as Muslims on MM have much more control and respect.

[/quote]


Am I ok with a naked Jesus made out of chocolate? Good question. Number one, that's not freedom of speech, that's freedom of expression. Number two, I would "vote with my money" to try to pressure art galleries to reject this artist. Is it the artist's right to make that piece though?... Yea, I think it is. At that point the question really is "does anyone have the right to display it?" Like I said, with my money I'll vote against it, but that's not censorship. That's just my right as a consumer.

In any case, this is a tangent that I don't think we need to address. You're concerned about what you see to be anti-Islamic posts that you've seen on Phatmass. Why exactly are you directing this outrage at me? My very first post indicated that I think there have been failings on the part of both Christians and Muslims over the last two days or so.

I would suggest above all that if you take offense at a particular post, then address it calmly and respectfully. It works wonders towards facilitating a truly engaging and informative debate. I really want to emphasize the calm part, because too often on this forum, and probably others, people jump on a post and fly into a rage. This really isn't healthy. We're all adults here, or at least very nearly adults (to be safe), so we should all be able to disagree calmly and respectfully, and then discuss why we disagree. Have some people failed to do this? Absolutely. That's human nature. If you want to change it though, start with yourself. It's what I'm trying to do. I forget who said it, but "be the change you want to see in the world." It's by far the best place to begin. People follow that example. I can say this with some confidence. If they don't, then at least your conscience is clear.

Finally, I'm disappointed that you're not planning on reporting offensive posts. You've joined Phatmass as a member. That means that you're expected to follow our rules, and it also means that everybody else is expected to follow our rules when interacting with you. You have every right to make a report when you feel that you or your friends from MM are being treated wrongly.


Have a blessed day;

Blood of Christ, strength of confessors, save us.

-Nihil Obstat

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' date='10 December 2009 - 03:06 PM' timestamp='1260479160' post='2017779']
I was speaking in relation to the topic, We Can Disagree And Still Be Respectful. Yes we can, yet there as been a on going theme of protest against Apo, HCF, Soc, DominicanSoul and myself because we speak truth with [i]conviction, in a manner that bespeaks the determination with which we believe it.[/i]

That unfounded protest found its way in this tread if that was your intent or not.
[/quote]
That's your right. I was just telling you my preference. Anyone is free to ignore it at their whim.