Honor Killings

[rayz]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='10 December 2009 - 12:20 PM' timestamp='1260444016' post='2017363']
but what I do have a problem with is the imposition of Islamic law on non-Muslims. For example, the imposition of the jizya on Christians (and members of other religions) is not something that I could ever support, nor can I support the discriminatory elements of Islamic law that treat non-Muslims as lesser citizens within the state. The Churches in the Middle East and North Africa suffered greatly under Muslim rule, and I see no reason why a Christian should ever have to submit to the legal system established by Mohammad (and his followers).
[/quote]

Non Americans who live and earn in USA pay tax don't they? Any problem with that? Jizya is the same thing. Every muslims and non muslim pay taxes although these two are names differently. Muslims pay zakat, non muslims pay jizya.
As I said before, Islamic system is a personal spiritual system as well as state governance system which also dictates taxes. When non muslims abide by the law (more on this later) and pay the taxes, their (non muslims) lives and property becomes sacred. That means it is the obligation of muslims of that state to protect the non muslims living among them.

What you say about Christians and Jews being subjected to Islamic law is not correct at all. In the time of the Prophet Muhammed, jews came to him for judgement for disputes among them selves (jews) because they recognized the prophet to be a just man if not a prophet. And in those situations the disputes between the jews were judged according to the jewish scriptures. Christians nowadays throughout the world submit to manmade laws in their respective countries don't they? So what's the problem? Islamic system goes the extra step in allowing Jews and Christians to perform their civil activities according to their own law.

As for your statement that Churches in Middle east and north africa suffered great deal, according to Islam, Churches and Synnogogues and monks/priests are not to be harmed even in the heat of battle. I don't know enough history to accept or deny your claims, but even if it is true that would be a result of misapplying the laws rather than upholding them. I'm sure we can find violence as a result of misapplication of laws in all sects of religions and ideologies.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='rayz' date='10 December 2009 - 04:47 AM' timestamp='1260445630' post='2017375']
Non Americans who live and earn in USA pay tax don't they? Any problem with that? Jizya is the same thing. Every muslims and non muslim pay taxes although these two are names differently. Muslims pay zakat, non muslims pay jizya.
As I said before, Islamic system is a personal spiritual system as well as state governance system which also dictates taxes. When non muslims abide by the law (more on this later) and pay the taxes, their (non muslims) lives and property becomes sacred. That means it is the obligation of muslims of that state to protect the non muslims living among them.[/quote]
In America taxes are based upon income, which means that I do not pay a special tax in order to be a Christian, while a Muslim is exempted from such a tax. I am shocked that anyone would try to justify the Jizya.

Non-Americans living in the US pay the same taxes as everyone else.

[quote name='rayz' date='10 December 2009 - 04:47 AM' timestamp='1260445630' post='2017375']
What you say about Christians and Jews being subjected to Islamic law is not correct at all. In the time of the Prophet Muhammed, jews came to him for judgement for disputes among them selves (jews) because they recognized the prophet to be a just man if not a prophet. And in those situations the disputes between the jews were judged according to the jewish scriptures. Christians nowadays throughout the world submit to manmade laws in their respective countries don't they? So what's the problem? Islamic system goes the extra step in allowing Jews and Christians to perform their civil activities according to their own law.[/quote]
What the Jews did with Mohammad is their own business, and they paid dearly for it (e.g., Banu Qurayza).

Now, as far as Christians submitting to "man-made" laws is concerned, since I hold that Mohammad was a false prophet it follows that Muslims submit to "man-made" laws as well, but the difference is that they submit to laws formulated by a liar who claimed to be something that he was not (i.e., a prophet).

As a Catholic I distinguish between positive laws and the natural law, and the former must conform to the latter.

[quote name='rayz' date='10 December 2009 - 04:47 AM' timestamp='1260445630' post='2017375']
As for your statement that Churches in Middle east and north africa suffered great deal, according to Islam, Churches and Synnogogues and monks/priests are not to be harmed even in the heat of battle. I don't know enough history to accept or deny your claims, but even if it is true that would be a result of misapplying the laws rather than upholding them. I'm sure we can find violence as a result of misapplication of laws in all sects of religions and ideologies.[/quote]
Alas, Islam does not seem to follow what you believe it is required to do in connection with Churches and Synagogues, because most of the Churches in Constantinople - for example - were taken away from the Christians of that city (including the mother Church of the Byzantine Rite - Hagia Sophia) and converted into mosques. Thus, the true worship of God (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit) was replaced with the vile superstition of Mohammad.

Edited December 10, 2009 by Apotheoun

[rayz]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='10 December 2009 - 12:59 PM' timestamp='1260446380' post='2017377']
In America taxes are based upon income, which means that I do not pay a special tax in order to be a Christian, while a Muslim is exempted from such a tax.
[/quote]
Jizya is also based upon income. Like I said before which you don't seem to comprehend - muslims also pay tax called by a different name.


[quote name='Apotheoun' date='10 December 2009 - 12:59 PM' timestamp='1260446380' post='2017377']
I am shocked that anyone would try to justify the Jizya.
[/quote]
I am not surprised that you are, judging by the myopic nature of your replies.
Not going to entertain your angry accusations any more.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='rayz' date='10 December 2009 - 05:05 AM' timestamp='1260446705' post='2017378']
Jizya is also based upon income. Like I said before which you don't seem to comprehend - muslims also pay tax called by a different name.[/quote]
It is also based upon a man's religious affiliation, or do you deny that it is a tax specially imposed on non-Muslims as a form of tribute.

It is strange to see someone openly support such a vile thing as the jizya, but I bet that you would try and defend the practice of the Islamic Ottoman Empire taking Christian children away from their parents in order to turn them into Janissaries.

[quote name='rayz' date='10 December 2009 - 05:05 AM' timestamp='1260446705' post='2017378']
I am not surprised that you are, judging by the myopic nature of your replies.
Not going to entertain your angry accusations any more.
[/quote]
I know that you do not like my viewpoint, but it is hardly myopic. At least I have studied your religion, while I doubt that you can say the same thing.

Edited December 10, 2009 by Apotheoun

[rayz]

^ Ofcourse I have studied Christianity/Catholicism and also hinduism and buddism.
One advice: Don't presume.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='rayz' date='10 December 2009 - 05:11 AM' timestamp='1260447099' post='2017380']
^ Ofcourse I have studied Christianity/Catholicism and also hinduism and buddism.
One advice: Don't presume.
[/quote]
I am more than willing to have a discussion with you about Catholic theology. It would be interesting to see what you know about Catholicism. Perhaps we could discuss Triadology, Christology, or the nature of grace in Catholic theology, and the differences between Eastern and Western Christians in connection with these theological issues. You can PM me or create a new thread on any of those topics, or a different one if you prefer. I am always pleased to find someone who has studied the various religious traditions of the world.

Edited December 10, 2009 by Apotheoun

[rayz]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='10 December 2009 - 01:17 PM' timestamp='1260447437' post='2017381']
I am more than willing to have a discussion with you about Catholic theology. It would be interesting to see what you know about Catholicism. Perhaps we could discuss Triadology, Christology, or the nature of grace in Catholic theology, and the differences between Eastern and Western Christians in connection with these theological issues. You can PM me or create a new thread on any of those topics, or a different one if you prefer. I am always pleased to find someone who has studied the various religious traditions of the world.
[/quote]

Apotheoun, thank you for the invitation. But I am not interested in nuances of theology.
I have one question for you though. When you studied Islam, what were your sources? Because, I believe when you want to study a religion (or a culture for that matter) you need to study from "their" perspective. For example, if I want to study the bible, it would be laughable if I went to evilbible.com. So please, what were your Islamic sources?

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='rayz' date='10 December 2009 - 05:24 AM' timestamp='1260447867' post='2017383']
Apotheoun, thank you for the invitation. But I am not interested in nuances of theology.
I have one question for you though. When you studied Islam, what were your sources? Because, I believe when you want to study a religion (or a culture for that matter) you need to study from "their" perspective. For example, if I want to study the bible, it would be laughable if I went to evilbible.com. So please, what were your Islamic sources?
[/quote]
Sorry, since you claimed to have some knowledge of Catholic theology, I thought it would be interesting to test that knowledge, i.e., to see how accurate it is.

P.S. - I studied the early developments in Islamic theology at SFSU as a part of my second bachelors degree, and the source materials used during my course of study were primary texts (e.g., Quran, Hadith, writings of early Muslim theologians, etc.).

Edited December 10, 2009 by Apotheoun

[Laudate_Dominum]

I'd rather hear things about Islam from an insider's perspective. lol. For example, what do you think of the war in Afghanistan (and the Taliban, the Pakistan government, etc.)? Perhaps this is not the thread for that.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Laudate_Dominum' date='10 December 2009 - 05:31 AM' timestamp='1260448307' post='2017386']
I'd rather hear things about Islam from an insider's perspective. lol. For example, what do you think of the war in Afghanistan?
[/quote]
You might want to create your own thread for that purpose.

[rayz]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='10 December 2009 - 01:28 PM' timestamp='1260448124' post='2017385']
Sorry, since you claimed to have some knowledge of Catholic theology, I thought it would be interesting to test that knowledge, i.e., [b]to see how accurate it is.[/b]
[/quote]
Lol, that was obvious. But seriously, I don't like too much hair splitting.

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='10 December 2009 - 01:28 PM' timestamp='1260448124' post='2017385']
P.S. - I studied the early developments in Islamic theology at SFSU as a part of my second bachelors degree, and the source materials used during my course of study were primary texts (e.g., Quran, Hadith, writings of early Muslim theologians, etc.).
[/quote]

Sounds like this is from a western/non-muslim point of view, am i right?
Although you guys used primary texts that was scrutinized in orientalist light, was it?

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='10 December 2009 - 07:32 AM' timestamp='1260448373' post='2017387']
You might want to create your own thread for that purpose.
[/quote]
Okay, I created a new thread, but I never consider a thread to be my own. hehe.

[rayz]

[quote name='Laudate_Dominum' date='10 December 2009 - 01:31 PM' timestamp='1260448307' post='2017386']
I'd rather hear things about Islam from an insider's perspective. lol. For example, what do you think of the war in Afghanistan (and the Taliban, the Pakistan government, etc.)? Perhaps this is not the thread for that.
[/quote]

I'd be glad to answer about Islam. But what does afghan war have to do with religion? This is all about power and money. (ok, I am being overly simplistic. But seriously, this mess has to do more about economics and politics than religion. Religion as usual becomes a scape goat)
Have you read "Confessions of an economic hit man"? I like a good conspiracy now and then. (very relavent to Afghanistan/Iraq and all the mess we see nowadays)

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='rayz' date='10 December 2009 - 05:35 AM' timestamp='1260448517' post='2017389']
Lol, that was obvious. But seriously, I don't like too much hair splitting.[/quote]
Well, you told me not to presume to know things about your level of knowledge on Catholicism, but how can I even know if your "knowledge" is accurate if you are unwilling to test it. I can only assume that your knowledge is not based on primary sources materials (e.g. the writings of the Church Fathers, the holy councils, etc.). For all I know you gained your "knowledge" of Catholicism from Jimmy Swaggart Ministries.

[quote name='rayz' date='10 December 2009 - 05:35 AM' timestamp='1260448517' post='2017389']
Sounds like this is from a western/non-muslim point of view, am i right?
Although you guys used primary texts that was scrutinized in orientalist light, was it?[/quote]
The majority of my professors were Muslim, or at least they claimed to be Muslim. Moreover, the texts were primary sources (i.e., texts written by Muslims), so I do not see how one could call that aspect of my degree "Western/non-Muslim." I was required to critically appraise the things I read, but I doubt that you would want to say that that practice is "Western/non-Muslim," because that would imply that Muslims do not think critically when reading documents from their own religious tradition.

Edited December 10, 2009 by Apotheoun

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='rayz' date='10 December 2009 - 07:40 AM' timestamp='1260448811' post='2017396']
I'd be glad to answer about Islam. But what does afghan war have to do with religion? This is all about power and money. (ok, I am being overly simplistic. But seriously, this mess has to do more about economics and politics than religion. Religion as usual becomes a scape goat)
Have you read "Confessions of an economic hit man"? I like a good conspiracy now and then. (very relavent to Afghanistan/Iraq and all the mess we see nowadays)
[/quote]
I'll reply in the new thread.