Honor Killings

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='Cruce' date='10 December 2009 - 12:42 AM' timestamp='1260423723' post='2017317']
I don't get why HCF and KoC feel free to quote from draconian Islamic texts and condemn Islam when the Bible itself is full of very similar things. I'm sure that Islam has various methods of interpretation just like Christianity does. I imagine that they get just as annoyed at HCF for quoting the Koran as we do at militant atheists for quoting from Leviticus.
[/quote]

This topic is about Islamic honor killings. Thanks.

[Cruce]

Right and the very first post merely quoted Islamic texts. Why don't you actually respond properly? I understand it's hard to justify double standards but at least try.

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='Cruce' date='10 December 2009 - 12:46 AM' timestamp='1260424008' post='2017320']
Right and the very first post merely quoted Islamic texts. Why don't you actually respond properly? I understand it's hard to justify double standards but at least try.
[/quote]

What, exactly, are you contributing to this thread?

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='Cruce' date='10 December 2009 - 12:42 AM' timestamp='1260423723' post='2017317']
I don't get why HCF and KoC feel free to quote from draconian Islamic texts and condemn Islam when the Bible itself is full of very similar things. I'm sure that Islam has various methods of interpretation just like Christianity does. I imagine that they get just as annoyed at HCF for quoting the Koran as we do at militant atheists for quoting from Leviticus.
[/quote]

I don't get why we have a repeat of this same argument whenever anyone criticizes Islam. The first 10 or 20 pages of [url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=100730"]this thread[/url] dealt with this issue. The roots of a tree and the foundation of a building is important. Christ is the foundation of the Church, He died for His Church, then many of His friends and followers died for Him and the Church. Muhammad is the root of Islam, He spread war in the name of Islam killing many, as his followers did the same.

A river polluted at its source is polluted through out.

Edited December 10, 2009 by KnightofChrist

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' date='10 December 2009 - 12:52 AM' timestamp='1260424362' post='2017323']
I don't get why we have a repeat of this same argument whenever anyone criticizes Islam.
[/quote]

Because we're not being PC. @@

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='HisChildForever' date='10 December 2009 - 12:55 AM' timestamp='1260424503' post='2017324']
Because we're not being PC. @@
[/quote]

Oh No! *Gasp!*

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' date='10 December 2009 - 01:04 AM' timestamp='1260425084' post='2017327']
Oh No! *Gasp!*
[/quote]

Yes, I am still working on it. One day I will give fuzzy feelings to all.

[jonyelmony]

Alot of this debate has been weighted down by people not realizing how specific a definition "an honour killing", people have already touched on this fact.

[quote name='bhrhrahraa' date='09 December 2009 - 07:44 PM' timestamp='1260405872' post='2017046']
Cultural practices and religious practices do not stand on the same level. Islam does not tolerate honor killings nor is it a part of the faith. Yes, it's ironic that most honor killings take place within Muslim families but at the same time, there are almost just about the same amount within nonMuslim families.

Culture and religion are to be kept separate at all times.

[/quote]

This is all good and convenient in theory but you can not argue that Islam has had no ability to shape Arabic culture. Christians were able to expel the cultural practices of pagan Europe that they did notapprove of and Pagan Europe was ultimatly vastly different to Christian Europe. Arab nations are the cultural centre for the Islamic world, a trend that has only increased recently. For instance Malay women who have been muslim for a long time who have once used to wear flowers in there hair now wear Hijabs.

[quote]
Fornication, pre-marital and extra marital sex, adultery, call it whatever you want are forbidden [b]and is punishable by death[/b].
[/quote]
This is entirely abhorrent



[quote]
The Prophet s.a.w.s. said in his last sermon, "...and today the devil has all but given up hope of misguiding you in the big things, so be careful of the small things and cling closely to the rope of Allah". So its not going to happen.

Also even if we compare Islam 1500 years after the message with Christianity at 1500 after Christ, Islam still has about 80-90% being in the Sunni Islam fold. Christinity had split between Eastern and Roman by that time.
Also Islam has been spread from Indonesia all the way to Africa and has been there for centuries, yet 85% are Sunni Muslim. On the other hand Christianity has only recently come to the east in large numbers but it is split into 72 sects already.

There is a verse in the quran, with the meaning "Indeed there are signs for those that reflect."
[/quote]

This is is only a problem of definition of a sect. Islam doesn't have the structures that the Catholic Church ever did. the Islam of S.B.Y is clearly different to the Islam of the Bali Bombers and yet they would both call themselves Sunni. 70 of those sects can broadly be called protestant, 1 Catholic and 1 orthodox, with a significant majority of the worlds Christians being Catholic.

Secularists are certain that they can roll all relgion, When the Islamic world has developed economically you will face the same troubles as Christianity only you will have a secularist movement which is already well established

Edited December 10, 2009 by jonyelmony

[Cruce]

[quote name='HisChildForever' date='10 December 2009 - 12:50 AM' timestamp='1260424256' post='2017322']
What, exactly, are you contributing to this thread?
[/quote]

That's not an answer.

I simply want you to tell me why an atheist who quotes from leviticus doesn't know what they're talking about but a Christian who uses Islamic texts to discredit Islam does?

You wont answer, you always find a way to dodge the question and it just proves how hypocritical and insubstantial your opinions are. So, are you going to answer or create yet another diversion? Why don't you afford Islamic texts the same lenience you afford the Old Testament?

[rayz]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='09 December 2009 - 08:07 PM' timestamp='1260407272' post='2017066']
[i]The story in the Sahih al-Muslim reveals something about Mohammad personal character, compare that with the following Biblical pericope:[/i]

[/quote]

A single narration (hadith) cannot be taken as a complete description of a character. Agreed?

Here are few points to consider before understanding the the hadith in question.

1. Prophet Muhammed (pbuh*) have the characteristic of both Moses (pbuh) (strict application of law) and also Jesus (pbuh) (more emphasis on mercy).

2. Adultary is punishable only if the sin is publicly confessed. By default, if a muslim happens to know some one who commited adultary he would keep it quite and would not go out of his way to have the adulterer punished. But for some reason, if the adulterer confesses publicly, then the law enforcement have no choice but to carry on with the punishment.

3. In the hadith of the woman who confessed to adultary was given couple of chances to be excused when she was told to go away to give birth and to nurse (which takes years to accompish while no one checks on her). But that woman, out of fear of God thought it would be better for her if she chose punishment in this life rather than in hearafter. When she repeatadly came to presence of the Prophet Muhammed (who would be sitting in company of a group), and confessed to her sin, the God's law had to be carried out. (see old tetiment for similar laws)

4. There are other narrations (hadith) which demonstrate the merciful aspect of the Prophet Muhammed in situations where the confessor was left unpunished under the circumstances.



----------
pbuh = peace be upon him

[rayz]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' date='09 December 2009 - 11:00 PM' timestamp='1260417621' post='2017245']
What of Qur'an 4:15, and Islamic/Sharia Law that allows for the rape and starvation of women?
[/quote]

First the verse in question
[quote]If any of your women are guilty of lewdness, Take the evidence of four (Reliable) witnesses from amongst you against them; and if theytestify, confine them to houses until death do claim them, or Allah ordainfor them some (other) way.[/quote]

First of all, I think it is obvious that this verse does not allow rape nor starvation. ok?

Now for exactly what does this verse means: If some one, say, the husband want to charge his wife of lewdness (more correctly - adultery) he just can't go to islamic court and say "hey! I found my wife in bed with another man". The husband will have to produce 4 witnesses who have seen the act of intercourse if he wants to make the charge! (If he fails to produce 4 witnesses, he will be labled as a liar and all his future confessions will be not valid. Read further in the Quran chapter for these pointers).

Let's say for some reason the wife accepts she did indeed commit adultary, then the punishment was house arrest according to this verse. (later the punishment was changed). Is this much different than the laws in old testiment (or even christian laws before modernization)?

[rayz]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' date='09 December 2009 - 07:08 PM' timestamp='1260403714' post='2017009']
No basis for honor killings in Islam?
[/quote]

Actually, Not at all.
First of all, what exactly is honor killing? From wikipedia (my precious) [quote]An [b]honor killing[/b] (also called a [b]customary killing[/b]) is the [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder"]murder[/url]of a family or clan member by one or more fellow family members, wherethe murderers (and potentially the wider community) believe the victimto have brought [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honour"]dishonor[/url] upon the family, clan, or community.[/quote]

Under islamic law, death penalty can be only carried out by the islamic court with a qualified judge. Not the family, not the community. Period!
See? end of discussion.

[jonyelmony]

Before i comment any further, how different is what happens to a Catholic adulterous women who goes to confession today different from what would happen in years gone by. Was penance forced (which i would assume would break the seal of confession) and what would this penance be?

Regardless it is always obvious that Jesus would have forgiven previous stated women and assured her that her sins were forgiven in the next life. This is the beauty of Christianity.

[rayz]

[quote name='jonyelmony' date='10 December 2009 - 05:01 AM' timestamp='1260439317' post='2017355']

Regardless it is always obvious that Jesus would have forgiven previous stated women and assured her that her sins were forgiven in the next life. This is the beauty of Christianity.
[/quote]

No arguments here. I would like to add however, in Islam, gates of mercy is always open a sinner. Repentance does indeed bring forgiveness. having that said, Islamic system is a system of personal spirituality as well as state governance system. That means the Islamic penal code also needs to be upheld for the welfare of the society. I think no one will argue about punishing a murderer or a rapist.


Let me try to clarify a bit more by an example.

Suppose some average young guy broke in to my house and tried to steal my money - and I caught him. According to Islamic teachings, the higher thing to do would be to forgive the dude and let him go without reporting him. I also have the choice of reporting him if my heart was not that big (or let's say he is so creepy and I fear for my life that he would come back for revenge). If I do report him to the Islamic authorities (in a Islamic state), the authorities MUST carry out the justice. They do not have the right to practice mercy.


Basically I am trying to demonstrate that the Islamic system of law is a vast system, and there are place for mercy and forgiveness in it as well as strict application of law.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='rayz' date='10 December 2009 - 03:27 AM' timestamp='1260440854' post='2017357']
No arguments here. I would like to add however, in Islam, gates of mercy is always open a sinner. Repentance does indeed bring forgiveness. having that said, Islamic system is a system of personal spirituality as well as state governance system. That means the Islamic penal code also needs to be upheld for the welfare of the society. I think no one will argue about punishing a murderer or a rapist.


Let me try to clarify a bit more by an example.

Suppose some average young guy broke in to my house and tried to steal my money - and I caught him. According to Islamic teachings, the higher thing to do would be to forgive the dude and let him go without reporting him. I also have the choice of reporting him if my heart was not that big (or let's say he is so creepy and I fear for my life that he would come back for revenge). If I do report him to the Islamic authorities (in a Islamic state), the authorities MUST carry out the justice. They do not have the right to practice mercy.


Basically I am trying to demonstrate that the Islamic system of law is a vast system, and there are place for mercy and forgiveness in it as well as strict application of law.
[/quote]
I do not have a problem with your "personal spirituality" even if I believe that it is founded upon the teachings of a false prophet, but what I do have a problem with is the imposition of Islamic law on non-Muslims. For example, the imposition of the jizya on Christians (and members of other religions) is not something that I could ever support, nor can I support the discriminatory elements of Islamic law that treat non-Muslims as lesser citizens within the state. The Churches in the Middle East and North Africa suffered greatly under Muslim rule, and I see no reason why a Christian should ever have to submit to the legal system established by Mohammad (and his followers).