Honor Killings

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Selah' date='09 December 2009 - 06:01 PM' timestamp='1260406880' post='2017062']
If that is the case, what of the Inqusition and the death of the heretics? Also...I will have to find the quote, it's on here somewhere...but did St. Thomas Aquinas not speak in favor of the death penalty for heretics? He mentioned it being along the lines of removing cancer from the body or something to that effect.

Also, what of the Old Testement? What of the killings there? Are they justified?
[/quote]
As you probably know, I am not a big follower of Aquinas.

BTW, the 4th century Church generally exiled heretics, which the heretics also did to those who were Orthodox. There are of course times when violence was used, e.g., the Monothelite heretics cut out the tongue and cut off the right hand of St. Maximos the Confessor. Months later he died from his injuries.

[extempers]

[quote name='dairygirl4u2c' date='09 December 2009 - 08:00 PM' timestamp='1260406850' post='2017061']
or more specifically... why is this even a thread?
granted, the topic isn't about the old testament. but, given what is in there, and how it's just as bad... what's the point of this thread? if it's to scorn islam, are we sure we can really do that? i suppose in some sense we can cause christianity trumped all that. but that's hanging by a thin thread given it's past, and what islam does should at least strike these guys as a threshhold acceptable thing, as a matter of raw justice as is supposed by how christianity allows that stoning etc are its God's honest truth and past.
so what's the point of this thread? what is its ultiamte purpose? are they just asying 'oh dont over analyze its purpose... let's just get on with puttin them down without saying why or anything', lets just sit around making implications yet not drawing the conclusios- that way we can feel okay about it.
[/quote]

The point of this thread is the same point of major Christian missionaries of the past and present.
The theology of Islam is sound, beautiful and obvious truth and there is no room to attack, therefore they attack Prophet Muhammad (s), attack the hadith and try to make the argument that nasty cultural practices are inherently justified in Islam.

Misquote, misread, superficial understanding, emotional outrage, applying current western ethical standards to other times and zones and all of the typical mashghuna (haha I don't know how to spell yiddish) one can find when one is trying to attack Islam.


The problem is, these arguments are not very convincing and have been easily refuted by both Muslim and non-muslim scholars of the past and present.

So when are we going to get to the nitty gritty or should I expect some more lame attempts to malign Islam that one can find on bigoted sites like jihadwatch?

Haha, come on guys, I know this is not your foundation for rejecting Islam...well I hope not, cause them I'm scared...

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Selah' date='09 December 2009 - 06:10 PM' timestamp='1260407412' post='2017068']
[quote]"Let him who is without sin among you be the first to throw a stone at her."[/quote]
YES
[/quote]
Yes. If only Mohammad had taught that.

[sacredheartandbloodofjesus]

Why not start a thread on the Trinity and the theologicsl differences between Islam and Christianity??

[extempers]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='09 December 2009 - 08:07 PM' timestamp='1260407272' post='2017066']
[i]The story in the Sahih al-Muslim reveals something about Mohammad personal character, compare that with the following Biblical pericope:[/i]

Jesus went to the Mount of Olives. Early in the morning he came again to the temple; all the people came to him, and he sat down and taught them. The scribes and the Pharisees brought a woman who had been caught in adultery, and placing her in the midst they said to him, "Teacher, this woman has been caught in the act of adultery. Now in the law Moses commanded us to stone such. What do you say about her?" This they said to test him, that they might have some charge to bring against him. Jesus bent down and wrote with his finger on the ground. And as they continued to ask him, he stood up and said to them, "Let him who is without sin among you be the first to throw a stone at her." And once more he bent down and wrote with his finger on the ground. But when they heard it, they went away, one by one, beginning with the eldest, and Jesus was left alone with the woman standing before him. Jesus looked up and said to her, "Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?" She said, "No one, Lord." And Jesus said, "Neither do I condemn you; go, and do not sin again." (John 8:1-11)
[/quote]
A faulty comparison. The woman, who is a sahabi (a woman of the greatest generation of Islam whose example we follow) came to the Prophet on her volition. She was turned away repeatedly, first by him trying not to listen AND THEN by long-term steps he told her to do before coming.
And again and again she came back.

Glory to God, if we the Muslims today had even a fraction of her faith and taqwa (God love/God Fear/God consciousness) we would be so blessed.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='extempers' date='09 December 2009 - 06:27 PM' timestamp='1260408420' post='2017084']
A faulty comparison. The woman, who is a sahabi (a woman of the greatest generation of Islam whose example we follow) came to the Prophet on her volition. She was turned away repeatedly, first by him trying not to listen AND THEN by long-term steps he told her to do before coming.
And again and again she came back.

Glory to God, if we the Muslims today had even a fraction of her faith and taqwa (God love/God Fear/God consciousness) we would be so blessed.
[/quote]
Based on the reported incident in Sahih al-Muslim I must say that I am glad that Muslims today do not have a fraction of the faith that the "greatest generation" of Islam had.

[Hassan]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='09 December 2009 - 07:17 PM' timestamp='1260404269' post='2017021']
That said, the quotations do reveal that Mohammad encouraged "honor killing."
[/quote]

If you think that then you don't understand what an honor killing is.

[extempers]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='09 December 2009 - 08:29 PM' timestamp='1260408588' post='2017087']
Based on the reported incident in Sahih al-Muslim I must say that I am glad that Muslims today do not have a fraction of the faith that the "greatest generation" of Islam had.
[/quote]
On the full hadith or the jihadwatch abridged version?

Interesting that a Christian would speak out against sacrificing oneself to God
I gotta be honest, it is more than surprising that this hadith and this story are being talked about in a negative manner.

But I get it, it fits the common Christian narrative against Islam. I just hope, with such a beautiful story, you all look beyond the parameters of the Christian narrative and see what the event is really about.

[Winchester]

This will be much the same as dealing with a Protestant, except we are likely to be in the Protestant's proof-texting shoes.

The only fact we need is this and that is that Mohammedanism rejects Jesus as the Son of God. That is enough for us to reject Mohammed and his religion. It could be an exemplar of morality and yet we would have to oppose it.

This does not mean Mohammed and his followers are condemned to Hell or that they [i]intentionally [/i]oppose God.

[bhrhrahraa]

[quote name='Winchester' date='09 December 2009 - 08:38 PM' timestamp='1260409122' post='2017094']
This will be much the same as dealing with a Protestant, except we are likely to be in the Protestant's proof-texting shoes.

The only fact we need is this and that is that Mohammedanism rejects Jesus as the Son of God. That is enough for us to reject Mohammed and his religion. It could be an exemplar of morality and yet we would have to oppose it.

This does not mean Mohammed and his followers are condemned to Hell or that they [i]intentionally [/i]oppose God.
[/quote]

Regarding Jesus as the son of God is blasphemous in the eyes of Muslims. However, we love and accept Jesus as a great prophet, we accept his teachings. In fact, he is merely a prophet and nothing more.
Nice to see the level of tolerance and respect you encompass for the wide array of faiths floating around. But alas, the words of one cannot speak for the entirety of civilization.

[Winchester]

[quote name='bhrhrahraa' date='09 December 2009 - 08:41 PM' timestamp='1260409287' post='2017097']
Regarding Jesus as the son of God is blasphemous in the eyes of Muslims. However, we love and accept Jesus as a great prophet, we accept his teachings. In fact, he is merely a prophet and nothing more.
Nice to see the level of tolerance and respect you encompass for the wide array of faiths floating around. But alas, the words of one cannot speak for the entirety of civilization.
[/quote]
Well, if you research my posts, you will not always find me so moderate. But thanks.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Winchester' date='09 December 2009 - 06:38 PM' timestamp='1260409122' post='2017094']
This does not mean Mohammed and his followers are condemned to Hell or that they [i]intentionally [/i]oppose God.
[/quote]
One has to bear in mind the distinction between material and formal opposition to God.

[rkwright]

[quote name='Winchester' date='09 December 2009 - 08:43 PM' timestamp='1260409396' post='2017100']
Well, if you research my posts, you will not always find me so moderate. But thanks.
[/quote]

lol I know I read that.... I was like is he talking about the same guy? Is that sarcasm??

Alas... you have deceived the muslims Winnie! you sly dog

[KnightofChrist]

MAINTAINING FAMILY HONOR

by Al Skudsi bin Hookah, roving reporter and foreign correspondent for The Gaza Gajeera.
Jan 20, 2003

I am very unhappy. Our way of life is under attack. And we are not fighting back. Deep down, we know that when a woman has disgraced her family, nothing will restore honor except by killing her. This is understood in Jordan, Syria, Yemen, Lebanon, Egypt, the Gaza strip and the West Bank. So why are we Arabs telling the Western press that honor killing is cultural, that it is not really part of Islam? Our way of life is based on maintaining our honor. And make no mistake about it: a woman does tarnish her family's honor by engaging in pre-marital sex, or by getting herself raped, when she seeks divorce and when she marries against her family's wishes.

Why are we pussyfooting? Are we ashamed of what we do? Why are some of us trying to play it down? Like the people who say it's the same as battering women in America. Come on, now. Sometimes, when we correct a wife's behavior by a well-deserved beating, we can maybe go a little too far. But that's different. Or there's this guy, Mohammed Haz Yahya at the Hebrew University (wouldn't you know it), who makes believe killing to protect our honor is like the western world's crime of passion. Come on now.

It's not just religious leaders who know it's the right thing to do. Many of the most progressive political leaders are the ones who defend the practice. To maintain the integrity of our society and our traditions, we must maintain our honor by any and every means. And keeping our women pure is a big part of our honor. So there's no point saying honor killing isn't really part of our religion. Our religion isn't just what's in the Koran. Honor killings fit into the cultural context of today's Islamic teachings. Honor and Islam are inextricably bound; they are what give our life meaning. A strong religion demands we choose to maintain our honor.

I am also annoyed that news reports focus on gory details instead of showing compassionate understanding of what motivated the men who act vigorously to maintain honor. They are the real victims. Their honor was violated, so killing the offending woman is self-defense. Instead, like in this story, reporters graphically describe the damage done by the ax -- of course an ax is going to do damage. Listen to this:

" Two months ago, when she tried to run away yet again, Kina grabbed a kitchen knife and an ax and stabbed and beat the girl [his daughter] until she lay dead in the blood-smeared bathroom of the family's Istanbul apartment. He then commanded one of his daughters-in-law to clean up the mess. When his two sons came home from work 14 hours later, he ordered them to dispose of the 5-foot-3 corpse, which had been wrapped in a carpet and a blanket. The girl's head had been so mutilated, police said, it was held together by a knotted cloth."

And this:

"Kifaya Husayn, a 16-year-old Jordanian girl, was lashed to a chair by her 32-year-old brother. He gave her a drink of water and told her to recite an Islamic prayer. Then he slashed her throat. Immediately afterward, he ran out into the street, waving the bloody knife and crying, 'I have killed my sister to cleanse my honor.' Kifaya's crime? She was raped by another brother, a 21-year-old man. Her judge and jury? Her own uncles, who convinced her eldest brother that Kifaya was too much of a disgrace to the family's honor to be allowed to live. The murderer was sentenced to fifteen years, but the sentence was subsequently reduced to seven and a half years, an extremely severe penalty by Jordanian standards."

This one is better. At least the reporter focused on why the brother had to kill his sister.

A 25-year-old Palestinian who hanged his sister with a rope: "I did not kill her, but rather helped her to commit suicide and to carry out the death penalty she sentenced herself to. I did it to wash with her blood the family honor that was violated because of her and in response to the will of society that would not have had any mercy on me if I didn't . . . Society taught us from childhood that blood is the only solution to wash the honor."

And here, at least, we can see it isn't just some ignorant slobs who live in the boonies.

" `I would do what I have to do,' said Bassam al-Hadid, a Jordanian with an American doctorate who spent 12 years as a hospital administrator in the United States, when asked whether he would kill a daughter who had sex outside marriage."

I have to say that I'm heartened to see that in families that respect themselves, women are as dedicated as men.

"Samia Sarwar, 29, mother of two boys aged 4 and 8, was shot dead today in lawyer Hina Jillani's office by a bearded man accompanying her mother and uncle. `He's my helper, I can't walk,' said the mother, when Hina told the two men to get out. As the mother went to sit down in front of Hina's desk, and Saima stood up from her chair, the bearded man whipped out a pistol from his waistcoat and shot Saima in the head, killing her instantly."

A European I know said he doesn't understand why a girl who is raped has to die to protect her family's honor. "After all," he said, "it isn't her fault". Is it so hard to understand that when an unmarried woman is no longer sexually pure, the family is humiliated? Her lack of chastity brings shame to everyone in her family. How else can her family's honor be cleansed except by her blood? What's to understand?

Actually, it's important that you understand that her impure state can destabilize morality in our whole society. If you don't understand that, you won't understand that our honor demands that we must tolerate no impertinance.

Everyone must know their place. Men must be in control of their families. Women and children must obey. Women must devote themselves to the care of their husband and children. Or things will spiral out of control.

We could end up with a big bunch of Kola Boofs. And you know what a headache she is. She was born respectable but she was brought up in America. Maybe that has something to do with it. She poses barebreasted on the cover of that disgusting book she wrote and she no longer considers herself a Muslim.

It's too bad her publisher had to be threatened before he stopped publishing her latest book. But he should have known better than to try to publish a book that is so disrespectful to the Arab Islamic communities in Europe and in Africa.

Boof has made terrible accusations. Listen to this one:

"As a black African woman, I cannot and will not be silent as black men in Arab nations are chained up like dogs to the back doors of Muslim households and fed, literally, from doggie bowls. I will not be silent as African women are raped, mutilated and mentally demeaned by sadistic human beings calling themselves children of Allah. I will not be silent as the number of little black boys who are sodomized by their Arab masters continues to soar, while even worse atrocities attend the lives of little black girls."

So maybe her disobedience started small. But, now, like the Shariah court in London's Islamic community said: she is guilty of "deliberately and maliciously bearing false witness against religious sentiment and of willing treason against her Arab Muslim father's people and against her nation, the Sudan."

And that's why Sudan has a fatwa out on her.

[extempers]

I read "pussyfooting" and I stopped reading.

[size="4"]Warning:[/size]
Checking the authenticity of sources partnered with an understanding that individual cultural cases do not remotely reflect what a world-wide religion stands for will lead to a better understanding of Islam.