HisChildForever Posted December 10, 2009 Share Posted December 10, 2009 [quote name='homeschoolmom' date='09 December 2009 - 07:37 PM' timestamp='1260405429' post='2017036'] Well, he probably has other stuff to do today. Just saying. [/quote] I did not mean "waiting" in the literal sense. Just that I expect him to join. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted December 10, 2009 Share Posted December 10, 2009 [quote name='Maggie' date='09 December 2009 - 05:42 PM' timestamp='1260405721' post='2017044'] I think Lillla went home for the night. She is at the George Washington University and doesn't have a computer of her own, just uses the library. [/quote] Thanks for the information. I am sure she will post eventually. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selah Posted December 10, 2009 Share Posted December 10, 2009 Dairy gives a good argument (for the sake of playing devil's advocate) Read the Old Testement. it's full of blood, gore, killing in God's name, wiping out nations for a piece of land, stonings, etc...gentile's were looked down on as well. Atheists and non-christians use these arguments all the time. How do you differentiate? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HisChildForever Posted December 10, 2009 Share Posted December 10, 2009 [quote name='Selah' date='09 December 2009 - 07:45 PM' timestamp='1260405906' post='2017049'] Dairy gives a good argument (for the sake of playing devil's advocate) Read the Old Testement. it's full of blood, gore, killing in God's name, wiping out nations for a piece of land, stonings, etc...gentile's were looked down on as well. Atheists and non-christians use these arguments all the time. How do you differentiate? [/quote] This debate is about honor killings in Islam. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted December 10, 2009 Share Posted December 10, 2009 [quote name='bhrhrahraa' date='09 December 2009 - 05:44 PM' timestamp='1260405872' post='2017046'] Apotheoun: He never encourage honor killings. If one disobeys his Lord, he will be punished and the consequences shall be beared. Thus, one should think before he acts. As in the case with the Hadith, the woman willingly went up to the Prophet knowing her consequences. [/quote] I guess it is a matter of how you read the particular Hadith sayings. Regardless, Mohammad certainly was not opposed to those types of killings, as the two quotations prove. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selah Posted December 10, 2009 Share Posted December 10, 2009 I know. And I counter it by saying that the Jews and even the early Christians (with the inquisition, for instance) also had "honor killings" to "weed out the heathens and the heretics." How is that different? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
extempers Posted December 10, 2009 Share Posted December 10, 2009 Interesting. Those statements have nothing to do with honor killings, rather state sanctioned punishment. No individual is allowed to take this upon themselves. http://qa.sunnipath.com/issue_view.asp?HD=1&ID=4895&CATE=13 The first hadith is a total cut-off, why not put the whole story. I googled the usage of the phrase and found it only to be listed under anti-islamic websites. Interesting If you've studied ahadith, there are many narrations that build together one statement. So for example, you PARTLY quoted 4206, but why ignore 4207 as well as the other authentic books of hadih narrating this event and others similar to it. There can be several ahadith across various books yet all are speaking about a single event. This was a GREAT woman who feared God and did not want to be punished in the Hereafter so she took it upon herself to be punished even after being ignored by the Prophet Muhammad (s) several times and even after he gave her several excuses to avoid the punishment. When I first heard this story I cried and it's really interesting how such a beautiful story can be twisted to fit a particular agenda, and that to of something as unrelated as honor killings. Well here is all of 4206 (notice it begins with a man committing adultery, pushing for punishment and then punished, OH AND THE ENDING IS COMPLETELY DIFFERENT) Abdullah b. Buraida reported on the authority of his father that Ma'iz b. Malik al-Aslami came to Allaah's Messenger (sallAllaahu alayhi wa sallam) and said: Allaah's Messenger, I have wronged myself; I have committed adultery and I earnestly desire that you should purify me. He turned him away. On the following day, he (Ma'iz) again came to him and said: Allaah's Messenger, I have committed adultery. Allaah's Messenger (sallAllaahu alayhi wa sallam) turned him away for the second time, and sent him to his people saying: Do you know if there is anything wrong with his mind. They denied of any such thing in him and said: We do not know him but as a wise good man among us, so far as we can judge. He (Ma'iz) came for the third time, and he (the Prophet) sent him as he had done before. He asked about him and they informed him that there was nothing wrong with him or with his mind. When it was the fourth time, a ditch was dug for him and he (the Prophet) pronounced judg- ment about him and he wis stoned. He (the narrator) said: There came to him (the Prophet) a woman from Ghamid and said: Allaah's Messenger, I have committed adultery, so purify me. He (the Prophet) turned her away. On the following day she said: Allaah's Messenger, Why do you turn me away? Perhaps, you turn me away as you turned away Ma'iz. By Allaah, I have become pregnant. He said: Well, if you insist upon it, then go away until you give birth to (the child). When she was delivered she came with the child (wrapped) in a rag and said: Here is the child whom I have given birth to. He said: Go away and suckle him until you wean him. When she had weaned him, she came to him (the Prophet) with the child who was holding a piece of bread in his hand. She said: Allaah's Prophet, here is he as I have weaned him and he eats food. He (the Prophet) entrusted the child to one of the Muslims and then pronounced punishment. And she was put in a ditch up to her chest and he commanded people and they stoned her. Khalid b Walid came forward with a stone which he flung at her head and there spurted blood on the face of Khalid and so he abused her. Allaah's Prophet (sallAllaahu alayhi wa sallam) heard his (Khalid's) curse that he had huried upon her. Thereupon he (the Prophet) said: Khalid, be gentle. By Him in Whose Hand is my life, she has made such a repentance that even if a wrongful tax-collector were to repent, he would have been forgiven. Then giving command regarding her, he prayed over her and she was buried. http://www.sahihmuslim.com/sps/smm/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightofChrist Posted December 10, 2009 Author Share Posted December 10, 2009 [quote name='bhrhrahraa' date='09 December 2009 - 07:44 PM' timestamp='1260405872' post='2017046'] KnightofChrist, the hadith you have posted has nothing to do with honor killings. Fornication, pre-marital and extra marital sex, adultery, call it whatever you want are forbidden and is punishable by death. [/quote] Yet honor killings are justified for those same reasons. [quote name='bhrhrahraa' date='09 December 2009 - 07:44 PM' timestamp='1260405872' post='2017046']In Islam, the accused needs 4 reliable witnesses. [/quote] "Or there is a pregnancy or confession." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted December 10, 2009 Share Posted December 10, 2009 [quote name='Selah' date='09 December 2009 - 05:47 PM' timestamp='1260406054' post='2017053'] I know. And I counter it by saying that the Jews and even the early Christians (with the inquisition, for instance) also had "honor killings" to "weed out the heathens and the heretics." How is that different? [/quote] Early Christians? Christians prior to the 4th century were hardly in a position to execute anyone for heresy, and as some of the posts in another thread highlight, even in the 4th and 5th century there were Church Fathers who opposed the death penalty for heresy (See [url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=100632&view=findpost&p=2008632"]Post#124[/url] and some of the posts both before and after it). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bhrhrahraa Posted December 10, 2009 Share Posted December 10, 2009 [quote name='KnightofChrist' date='09 December 2009 - 07:51 PM' timestamp='1260406279' post='2017056'] "Or there is a pregnancy or confession." [/quote] Or... there's also this thing called "rape." Like totally? >:x Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dairygirl4u2c Posted December 10, 2009 Share Posted December 10, 2009 (edited) [quote name='Selah' date='09 December 2009 - 07:47 PM' timestamp='1260406054' post='2017053'] I know. And I counter it by saying that the Jews and even the early Christians (with the inquisition, for instance) also had "honor killings" to "weed out the heathens and the heretics." How is that different? [/quote] or more specifically... why is this even a thread? granted, the topic isn't about the old testament. but, given what is in there, and how it's just as bad... what's the point of this thread? if it's to scorn islam, are we sure we can really do that? i suppose in some sense we can cause christianity trumped all that. but that's hanging by a thin thread given it's past, and what islam does should at least strike these guys as a threshhold acceptable thing, as a matter of raw justice as is supposed by how christianity allows that stoning etc are its God's honest truth and past. so what's the point of this thread? what is its ultiamte purpose? are they just asying 'oh dont over analyze its purpose... let's just get on with puttin them down without saying why or anything', lets just sit around making implications yet not drawing the conclusios- that way we can feel okay about it. instead of scorn, it seems more like 'we've found a better way, but we can't really criticize if they still think that that way is still okay, cause it is okay without Jesus" (or insert whatever argument is used to say why we dont stone etc any more) "it's at a threashhold okay, it's not all out not okay. " it'd be a lot more intellectually honest if people also put down the old testament practices, and forsake them, and maybe even say it's not truly of God, as i tend to do, instead of trying to draw these hard drawn lines. Edited December 10, 2009 by dairygirl4u2c Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selah Posted December 10, 2009 Share Posted December 10, 2009 [quote]Early Christians? Christians prior to the 4th century were hardly in a position to execute anyone for heresy, and as some of the posts in another thread highlight, even in the 4th and 5th century there were Church Fathers who opposed the death penalty for heresy (See Post#124 and some of the posts both before and after it).[/quote] If that is the case, what of the Inqusition and the death of the heretics? Also...I will have to find the quote, it's on here somewhere...but did St. Thomas Aquinas not speak in favor of the death penalty for heretics? He mentioned it being along the lines of removing cancer from the body or something to that effect. Also, what of the Old Testement? What of the killings there? Are they justified? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
extempers Posted December 10, 2009 Share Posted December 10, 2009 A sister's take: http://chasing-jannah.blogspot.com/2008/07/woman-from-ghamid.html As for individual cases where someone has taken upon themselves to violate the laws of God and be judge and punisher, they have acted unjustly and committed a major sin. But why the listing of their stories alone as if this is a case against Islam. US soldiers are governmental employees who directly represent the US and have raped and killed numerous women in Iraq and Afghanistan. Does that mean the US is evil? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted December 10, 2009 Share Posted December 10, 2009 [i]The story in the Sahih al-Muslim reveals something about Mohammad personal character, compare that with the following Biblical pericope:[/i] Jesus went to the Mount of Olives. Early in the morning he came again to the temple; all the people came to him, and he sat down and taught them. The scribes and the Pharisees brought a woman who had been caught in adultery, and placing her in the midst they said to him, "Teacher, this woman has been caught in the act of adultery. Now in the law Moses commanded us to stone such. What do you say about her?" This they said to test him, that they might have some charge to bring against him. Jesus bent down and wrote with his finger on the ground. And as they continued to ask him, he stood up and said to them, "Let him who is without sin among you be the first to throw a stone at her." And once more he bent down and wrote with his finger on the ground. But when they heard it, they went away, one by one, beginning with the eldest, and Jesus was left alone with the woman standing before him. Jesus looked up and said to her, "Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?" She said, "No one, Lord." And Jesus said, "Neither do I condemn you; go, and do not sin again." (John 8:1-11) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selah Posted December 10, 2009 Share Posted December 10, 2009 [quote]"Let him who is without sin among you be the first to throw a stone at her." [/quote] YES Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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