Honor Killings

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='extempers' date='09 December 2009 - 06:55 PM' timestamp='1260402911' post='2016991']
There is no basis, there never was a basis. It is a cultural practice that is found OUTSIDE of Islam, but of course we only hear about Muslims.
[/quote]

No basis for honor killings in Islam?


[quote]“A woman came to the prophet and asked for purification by seeking punishment. He told her to go away and seek God’s forgiveness. She persisted four times and admitted she was pregnant. He told her to wait until she had given birth. Then he said that the Muslim community should wait until she had weaned her child. When the day arrived for the child to take solid food, Muhammad handed the child over to the community. And when he had given command over her and she was put in a hole up to her breast, he ordered the people to stone her. Khalid b. al-Walid came forward with a stone which he threw at her head, and when the blood spurted on her face he cursed her.”

- Sahi Muslim No. 4206[/quote]



[quote]Hadhrat Abdullah ibne Abbaas (Radiallahu Anhu) narrates the lecture that Hadhrat Umar (Radiallaahu Anhu) delivered whilst sitting on the pulpit of Rasulullah (Sallallaahu Alayhi Wa Sallam). Hadhrat Umar (Radiallahu Anhu) said, "Verily, Allah sent Muhammad (Sallallaahu Alayhi Wa Sallam) with the truth, and revealed the Quran upon him. The verse regarding the stoning of the adulterer/ess was from amongst the verse revealed (in the Quraan). We read it, secured it and understood it. Rasulullah (Sallallaahu Alayhi Wa Sallam) stoned and we stoned after him. I fear that with the passage of time a person might say, ‘We do not find mention of stoning in the Book of Allah and thereby go astray by leaving out an obligation revealed by Allah. Verily, the stoning of a adulterer/ress is found in the Quraan and is the truth, if the witnesses are met or there is a pregnancy or confession."

- Sahih Al-Bukhari Vol 2. pg 1009; and Sahih Muslim Vol 2. pg 65[/quote]

[HisChildForever]

The tragic case of Amina and Sarah:

[quote] The girls’ great aunt, Gail Gartrell, told reporters, “This was an honor killing.” She explained that Yaser Said had long abused the girls, and after discovering that they had boyfriends, had threatened to kill them -- whereupon their mother fled with them. “She ran with them,” said Gartrell, “because she knew he would carry out the threat.” But Said found them, and apparently did carry it out.

Honor killing, the practice of murdering a female family member who is believed to have sullied the family honor, enjoys widespread acceptance in some areas of the Islamic world. However, Islam Said, the brother of Amina and Sarah, has denied that the murders had anything to do with Islam at all. “It’s not religion,” he insisted. “It’s something else. Religion has nothing to do with it.”

And to be sure, the Qur’an or Islamic tradition does not sanction honor killing. Muslim spokesmen have hastened, after the recent killing in Canada of another teenage Muslim girl, Aqsa Parvez, by her father to tell the public that honor killing has nothing to do with Islam, but is merely a feature of Islamic culture in some areas. Aqsa Parvez was sixteen years old; her father, Muhammad Parvez, has been charged with strangling her to death because she refused to wear the hijab. Shahina Siddiqui, president of the Islamic Social Services Association, declared: “The strangulation death of Ms. Parvez was the result of domestic violence, a problem that cuts across Canadian society and is blind to colour or creed.” Sheikh Alaa El-Sayyed, imam of the Islamic Society of North America in Mississauga, Ontario, agreed: “The bottom line is, it’s a domestic violence issue.”

But these dismissals are too easy, principally because they fail to take into account important evidence. In some areas, honor killing is assumed to be an Islamic practice. There is evidence that Islamic culture inculcates attitudes that could lead directly to the murders of these two girls in Texas. In 2003, the Jordanian Parliament voted down on Islamic grounds a provision designed to stiffen penalties for honor killings. In a sadly typical consequence of this early last year, a Jordanian man who murdered his sister because he thought she had a lover was given a three-month sentence, which was suspended for time served, allowing him to walk free. The Yemen Times just last week published an article insisting that violence against women is necessary for the stability of the family and the society, and invoking Islam to support this view. [/quote]

http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=24329

[Apotheoun]

The thread title should say the "Hadith." The Sahih al-Muslim and the Sahih al-Bukhari are hadith collections.

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='09 December 2009 - 07:15 PM' timestamp='1260404124' post='2017018']
The thread title should say the "Hadith." The Sahih al-Muslim and the Sahih al-Bukhari are hadith collections.
[/quote]

I was only quoting Sahih Al-Bukhari.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' date='09 December 2009 - 05:16 PM' timestamp='1260404196' post='2017020']
I was only quoting Sahih Al-Bukhari.
[/quote]
The various collections of Hadith are not part of the Quran, but they are authoritative sources within the Sunni tradition. That said, the quotations do reveal that Mohammad encouraged "honor killing."

Edited December 10, 2009 by Apotheoun

[HisChildForever]

Let's not forget Rifqa Bary, who should remain in our prayers.

[homeschoolmom]

Who's debating here?

[HisChildForever]

I for one am waiting for our new Muslim poster.

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='homeschoolmom' date='09 December 2009 - 07:26 PM' timestamp='1260404802' post='2017026']
Who's debating here?
[/quote]

The creation of this thread was in obendance to your request [url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=101067&view=findpost&p=2016989"]in this thread, in this post[/url].

It was intended to be a debate on the topic of Honor Killings in response to [url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=101067&view=findpost&p=2016991"]this post[/url], from the same thread.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='homeschoolmom' date='09 December 2009 - 05:26 PM' timestamp='1260404802' post='2017026']
Who's debating here?
[/quote]
Like any debate thread it has to start somewhere. But I am sure that Lilllabettt will come in at some point, and then the debate will begin in earnest.

[homeschoolmom]

[quote name='HisChildForever' date='09 December 2009 - 07:29 PM' timestamp='1260404974' post='2017027']
I for one am waiting for our new Muslim poster.
[/quote]
Well, he probably has other stuff to do today. Just saying.


[quote name='KnightofChrist' date='09 December 2009 - 07:30 PM' timestamp='1260405026' post='2017029']
The creation of this thread was in obendance to your request [url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=101067&view=findpost&p=2016989"]in this thread, in this post[/url].

It was intended to be a debate on the topic of Honor Killings in response to [url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=101067&view=findpost&p=2016991"]this post[/url], from the same thread.
[/quote]
Yes, I understand that, and I appreciate that. I just don't want a lot of one-sided postings going on for page after page waiting for someone to post an opposing viewpoint.


[quote name='Apotheoun' date='09 December 2009 - 07:32 PM' timestamp='1260405120' post='2017031']
Like any debate thread it has to start somewhere. But I am sure that Lilllabettt will come in at some point, and then the debate will begin in earnest.
[/quote]

Touche'

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='homeschoolmom' date='09 December 2009 - 07:37 PM' timestamp='1260405429' post='2017036']
I just don't want a lot of one-sided postings going on for page after page waiting for someone to post an opposing viewpoint.
[/quote]

I understand and thank you but it hasn't even been a page yet, and half the posts are devoted to this off-topic discussion.

[Maggyie]

I think Lillla went home for the night. She is at the George Washington University and doesn't have a computer of her own, just uses the library.

[dairygirl4u2c]

ive seen worse from the bible, the old testament. the stoning of women etc.
www.evilbible.com
www.evilbible.org

im just saying.

[bhrhrahraa]

Cultural practices and religious practices do not stand on the same level. Islam does not tolerate honor killings nor is it a part of the faith. Yes, it's ironic that most honor killings take place within Muslim families but at the same time, there are almost just about the same amount within nonMuslim families.

Culture and religion are to be kept separate at all times.

KnightofChrist, the hadith you have posted has nothing to do with honor killings. Fornication, pre-marital and extra marital sex, adultery, call it whatever you want are forbidden and is punishable by death.

In Islam, the accused needs 4 reliable witnesses. In most honor killings, there are no reputable witnesses and the fate is taken up by the matter of a household family.
In Islam, one would need to undergo Islamic law/ruling- Sha'riah.

HisChildForever: Wrong. Honor killings are not subjected solely to females. There have been cases of males being murdered as well.

Apotheoun: He never encourage honor killings. If one disobeys his Lord, he will be punished and the consequences shall be beared. Thus, one should think before he acts. As in the case with the Hadith, the woman willingly went up to the Prophet knowing her consequences.