Gays "will Never Go To Heaven."

[Laudate_Dominum]

Debates, language and civilization itself are intrinsically violent and must be rejected if we are to survive as a species. So-called 'facts' are violent means of oppression, opinions are morally superior to facts. Please let go of this fact-based way of thinking, for the common good. Tolerance is the first step towards celebrating diversity.

P.S. I'm just sharing my opinion, I respect your world-view and would not presume to claim that mine is actually superior. I celebrate our differences.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='JimR-OCDS' date='02 December 2009 - 02:12 PM' timestamp='1259788337' post='2013309']
Well thats your opinion, but your opinion doesn't make it fact.

Jim
[/quote]
Nor does the pseudo-scientific nonsense you stated in your earlier post "make it fact."

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='02 December 2009 - 02:16 PM' timestamp='1259788568' post='2013312']
However it's ultimately academic, because the objective truth remains that homosexual activity is inherently wrong and disordered, and will always be so.
[/quote]
I agree with you, and I am sure that Jim does too.

[Vincent Vega]

[quote name='JimR-OCDS' date='02 December 2009 - 04:11 PM' timestamp='1259788280' post='2013308']
Which is a reason to make sure your public statements are made clearly so as to be understood correctly.


Jim
[/quote]
The specific wording he used is not at fault if the error was of the translator.

Edited December 2, 2009 by USAirwaysIHS

[Mark of the Cross]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='03 December 2009 - 07:49 AM' timestamp='1259786999' post='2013294']
I do not accept the idea that the homosexual disorder is a genetic problem. Hormones fluctuate throughout a person's life, and there is no evidence to substantiate the idea that testosterone deficiency leads to the homosexual condition.
[/quote]
Would you have any theory on why Gay men can usually be picked strait away by their intonations and mannerisms? Although I must admit they could also acquire that through the same mechanism that a majority of prostitutes can be picked by their appearance and no one is born a prostitute.

[CatherineM]

The problem with this kind of statement is that mainstream will read the part about gays going to hell, but not about not discriminating against them, or that they have a choice.

[kamiller42]

[quote name='JimR-OCDS' date='02 December 2009 - 03:47 PM' timestamp='1259786824' post='2013292']
Hormones effect sexual drive and desire.

There is strong evidence, that gay males, lack testosterone, which they may have been
deprived while in their mother's womb.

Studies have shown that women who have gone through a high level of stress during
their pregnancy, use the small amount of testosterone in their bodies, thereby depriving
the male fetus of his normal amount.

Nothing is conclusive, but science supports this theory more than the Cardinal's conclusion.
[/quote]
So the biological link may or may not be true, but the decision to be gay is certainly conclusive. You don't deny there are people deciding to be gay and acting on it?

[Apotheoun]

I am sure that my brother will be surprised to find out that he is "gay," since he has suffered from testosterone deficiency for several years now.

Edited December 2, 2009 by Apotheoun

[Laudate_Dominum]

This is Yahoo News' take on what the Cardinal said so I would like to know all that was said, and it what context, before making any sweeping judgments. Although I must say that at face value I don't disagree with any of the statements recording in the Yahoo News blurb (which is just branded syndicated news anyway).

[mommas_boy]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='02 December 2009 - 04:33 PM' timestamp='1259789631' post='2013326']
I am sure that my brother will be surprised to find out that he is "gay," since he has suffered from testosterone deficiency for several years now.
[/quote]

[b]I believe that the theory Jim alluded to is in regards to a testosterone deficiency in utero, not post-birth.[/b] The theory is that our brains are "washed" in testosterone/estrogen during pre-natal development, and that this in some way contributes to the determination of sexual identity in a semi-hardwired sense (similar to the theory regarding predisposition toward alcohol: that it can be overcome, but still presents a "hardwired" obstacle to be overcome). However, these are still areas of great research, and truly nothing in science is ever "known".

As to the conversation at large:

Regardless of the status of the nature vs. nurture debate on homosexuality, there still does exist a level of choice to act on said attractions. While these attractions in themselves are disordered, it is only the actions that are potentially sinful.

At the same time, we must also keep in mind that the Church has never said that any particular person is in Hell, and to do so would be outside of both her authority as the Church, as well as the purview of her knowledge as an earthly body. She does, however, teach that there are people who exist in the state of Hell, but not who they are. Something in the absolute blanket statement, which also leads me to believe that there may have been a problem in translation, seems to suggest condemnation to a particular person. For example, a gay person upon hearing this would be very likely to say, "I'm gay. So I'm going to hell?" It is the possibility of such a personal condemnation that is so deadly, and what causes me to believe that the bishop was indeed misquoted or mistranslated.