A Question About The Adoratrices Du CœUr Royal De Jésus-Christ Souvera

[Antigonos]

[font="Arial"]I'd like to ask a question, if I may.

I've been looking at the photo archives of the Adoratrices du Cœur Royal de Jésus-Christ Souverain Prêtre and noticed that there were three women dressed as postulants in 2004. One was invested with the habit of a novice, but two were given the black veils of the vowed -- without apparently having undergone any novitiate, or having had any formation [as far as can be ascertained from the website] in another convent. Is this usual with a new foundation? And why should one become a novice but the two others apparently skip it?

Also, I noticed that from 2005, when the novice took vows, all the women who entered until 2009 remained novices until three took vows this year. That means that several women have been novices for 4 years or more. Isn't this an unusually long novitiate?

Thanks for any information. I really do not know a great deal about the length of formation.[/font]

[zunshynn]

I know very little about this particular order, but I do know of communities in the past, and some newer communities where some of the first sisters went straight from being basically postulants to being professed because they had actually been postulants for a considerable amount of time.

Sometimes when a community is first starting, the foundress and some of the first sisters with her will go straight from what they were when they were starting up the community to taking vows to being professed. They were never officially novices, because they were not yet an official community, but they did get the formation nonetheless. I know that Mother Marie de Ste. Claire, for example, who co-founded the Poor Clares of Perpetual Adoration, never really was a novice herself. When they were finally allowed to take vows, she made them right then. But she had also been living "as a postulant" for quite some time.

So perhaps the two you saw had actually been with the order longer than the one you saw as a novice. I don't know for sure though.

[Orans]

The first two Sisters were already religious before they started this new foundation, and a third one, a candidate joined them for the beginning. -I read this somewhere-

It makes a lot of sense that when there was an inicial gree light the two formed religious made vows while the new member became a novice.

As for the following group, while they are still taking shape as a community is probably very wise and prudent that they had longer time, especially because they don't have the canonical timing mandatory for them yet.

Peace!

[osapientia]

[quote name='Antigonos' date='02 December 2009 - 09:53 AM' timestamp='1259762005' post='2013150']
[font="Arial"]I'd like to ask a question, if I may.

That means that several women have been novices for 4 years or more. Isn't this an unusually long novitiate?

[/font]
[/quote]

To the best of my knowledge, Canon Law sets the upper limit at 2 years for a "true" novitiate (in the sense of "a novice"). However, some orders consider Junior Professed as part of the "novitiate" (broader sense) and some don't take the black veil until Final/Solemn Profession...so some of the "novices" you saw may have actually been professed sisters in white veils.

[zunshynn]

Bl. Elizabeth of the Trinity was considered part of the novitiate even a year or two after her solemn profession. Her Carmel at the time did not have temporary vows though, and a rather short novitiate. I don't think that arrangement exists anywhere now though.

[Gemma]

[quote name='Antigonos' date='02 December 2009 - 09:53 AM' timestamp='1259762005' post='2013150']
[font="Arial"]I'd like to ask a question, if I may.

I've been looking at the photo archives of the Adoratrices du Cœur Royal de Jésus-Christ Souverain Prêtre and noticed that there were three women dressed as postulants in 2004. One was invested with the habit of a novice, but two were given the black veils of the vowed -- without apparently having undergone any novitiate, or having had any formation [as far as can be ascertained from the website] in another convent. Is this usual with a new foundation? And why should one become a novice but the two others apparently skip it?

Also, I noticed that from 2005, when the novice took vows, all the women who entered until 2009 remained novices until three took vows this year. That means that several women have been novices for 4 years or more. Isn't this an unusually long novitiate?

Thanks for any information. I really do not know a great deal about the length of formation.[/font]
[/quote]

A combination of factors, if I had to guess, and all pertains to previous experience and what the bishop permitted.

The three would have had to have lived together to get their "working constitutions" going before the reception ceremony could be held, and since someone seems to have read that the two receiving the black veil were previously religious, that was a huge factor, also.

The Adoratrices follow Salesian spirituality, and from what I've seen, they seem to stick pretty closely to what the Visitation does, so yes, all those "white veils" are probably junior professed mixed in with the novices. The Visitation does that (Carmel does, too, for that matter), and you can prolly see the similarities in the habits.

The Adoratrices were talking about making an American foundation due to one nun's health, so we are praying that such is God's will. I know of one American who would be on their doorstep. She can't be right now due to educational debts.

Blessings,
Gemma

[DevotedtoHim]

I think they are a beautiful and glorious community.

Katherine

[Antigonos]

[quote name='DevotedtoHim' date='10 December 2009 - 10:25 PM' timestamp='1260473157' post='2017682']
I think they are a beautiful and glorious community.

Katherine
[/quote]


Yes, looking at the photos there is a "je ne sais quoi" feeling of elegance [that is SO European!] about both the nuns and the building they are renovating. Very 17th century, which was a graceful time, in art at least [rather different politically].

I wonder if there is any more information on the projected foundation in St. Louis. I haven't found anything since the announcement that Mere Marie Amour de Dieu had left Griciglano for the States.

[kavalamyself]

I think this is a really pretty community, I love their habits. Shallowly speaking.

As for the postulant/novice thing, remember that St. Therese didn't really get her solemn (or final) vows even though she wore a black veil because there were too many family members in the same Carmel and they couldn't have that amount with voting privileges?

Sometimes there are reasons why someone stays in one place or wears a certain color veil (like osap) explained. One community I know has their novices wear black veils when they go on errands "so they all look alike" and another one I know has everybody who hasn't made their solemn profession or their consecration wear white or cream. So you can't always count on the color of the veil to indicate where somebody is exactly...

[Indwelling Trinity]

As a professed religious before entering Carmel, I was received directly into a one year novitiate. The next step for me was taking vows. Religious transferring from another community are often allowed to go the quick route where as someone fresh to religious life will usually have to do the whole training from scratch.

In new communities, things are different for the initial member may start out as novices and then go on to profession especially if they were nuns before. All depends on the bishop.
But a canonical year of novitiate is a must for all.

Tenderly,

Indwelling Trinity

[magnificat]

[quote name='Antigonos' date='11 December 2009 - 02:23 AM' timestamp='1260512635' post='2018244']
I wonder if there is any more information on the projected foundation in St. Louis. I haven't found anything since the announcement that Mere Marie Amour de Dieu had left Griciglano for the States.
[/quote]
I don't know if anything "formal" has been decided but as of early December a second sister (can't remember her name) has also arrived in St. Louis to join Sr. Marie at the deSales Oratory. It seems that they are continuing to discern the possibility of beginning a foundation here in the States - Deo gratias!

[Studiumecclesiae]

Noviciate can last up to 4 years. Just like postulantship can be up to 2 years.
It's often prolounged because of our "wordly" habits.

I don't know about the Adorers, but I know the Solesmes nuns do that. It can last for up to 6 years because you make your temporary vows.

And again, when there's a new foundation, it often happens that one or several are chosen to lead the community. For example, Mère Cécile Bruyère became head of Sainte Cécile de Solesmes a year after the monastic life started there.
Dom Guéranger became a abbot without going through noviciate I think.

Edited July 1, 2011 by Studiumecclesiae

[faithcecelia]

[quote name='kavalamyself' timestamp='1261511123' post='2024546']

As for the postulant/novice thing, remember that St. Therese didn't really get her solemn (or final) vows even though she wore a black veil because there were too many family members in the same Carmel and they couldn't have that amount with voting privileges?

[/quote]


Therese [i]did[/i] make her solemn profession, and as was the norm then had her veiling ceremony about 10days later. The only difference was that she was not admitted to the Chapter as only 2 blooded sisters were allowed to be Chapter sisters. Similarly, Lay sisters would make a solemn profession, but they would get neither the black veil nor admission to Chapter.

Also, it is commonly said that Therese wasn't officially Novice Mistress as Mother Gonzague would have taken umpage, but in reality Therese could not have held the office officially as she was too young. Her youth also delayed both her Clothing and her Profession beyond the norms of her time.




In Carmel today sisters are considered novices until solemn profession, and sometimes referred to as professed novices when in temporary vows. To make it even more complicated, they actually come out of the Noviciate (ie don't go to conferences) a year before the anticipated date of their solemn profession.

[HopefulBride]

[quote name='Indwelling Trinity' timestamp='1261829936' post='2026201']
As a professed religious before entering Carmel, I was received directly into a one year novitiate. The next step for me was taking vows. Religious transferring from another community are often allowed to go the quick route where as someone fresh to religious life will usually have to do the whole training from scratch.

In new communities, things are different for the initial member may start out as novices and then go on to profession especially if they were nuns before. All depends on the bishop.
[b]But a canonical year of novitiate is a must for all.[/b]

Tenderly,

Indwelling Trinity
[/quote]

So even former religious forming new communities are required to do a canonical year of novitiate?

[MithLuin]

Canonical means....according to canon law. I don't know of any exceptions to this rule, and would think that a religious 'switching' communities would still have to do that, because part of the purpose of the novitiate is to become accustomed to the rule of life of the new community. Though...there may be an exception I don't know about. For a new order that isn't really a religious order yet, the rules may be more malleable (though there are still rules).

Here's a brief overview of some of the canons pertaining to the novitiate: [url=http://anunslife.org/2008/05/15/formation-novitiate-canon-law/]A Nun's Life[/url]

Can. 648 §1 [b]For validity, the novitiate must comprise [u]twelve months[/u] spent in the novitiate community[/b]...

§2 To complete the formation of the novices, the constitutions can prescribe, in addition to the time mentioned in §1, one or more periods of apostolic activity, to be performed outside the novitiate community.

§3 [b]The novitiate is not to be extended beyond two years.[/b]

Can. 651 §1 The director of novices is to be a member of the institute [u]who has taken perpetual vows[/u] and has been lawfully designated.

Can. 652 §5 The period of novitiate mentioned in can. 648 §1, is to be set aside [b]exclusively for the work of formation.[/b] The novices are therefore not to be engaged in studies or duties which do not directly serve this formation.


So, technically, junior professed are not novices, though there is no rule that says they can't wear the same veil as the novices. In cases where someone 'skipped' the novitiate, something else must have counted for it or been substituted or something....and I guess when you have a new order, *someone* has to be doing the formation for the new members...and that person can't be a novice themselves! Can. 656 mentions completion of the novitiate as a requirement for making temporary profession, so I would think that would apply to 'new to the order' religious who have already been members of other orders....generally speaking. Canon law is a bit vague on this, actually, merely stipulating a three year probationary period, and not stating how much (if any) of this is meant to be spent in the novitiate:

Can. 684 §1 Perpetually professed members cannot transfer from their own religious institute to another, except by permission of the supreme Moderators of both institutes, given with the consent of their respective councils.
§2 On completion of [b]a probationary period of at least three years,[/b] the member can be admitted to perpetual profession in the new institute. A member who refuses to make this profession, or is not admitted to do so by the competent Superiors, is to return to the original institute, unless an indult of secularisation has been obtained.
§3 For a religious to transfer from one autonomous monastery to another monastery of the same institute, federation or confederation, the consent of the major Superior of both monasteries and of the chapter of the receiving monastery is required and is sufficient, unless the institute's own law has established further conditions. A new profession is not required.
§4 [b]The institute's own law is to determine the time and manner of the probation which must precede the member's profession in the new institute. [/b]
§5 To transfer to a secular institute or to a society of apostolic life, or to transfer from these to a religious institute, the permission of the Holy See is required and its instructions are to be followed.

Can. 685 §1 Until profession is made in the new institute, the rights and obligations of the member in the previous institute are suspended, but [u]the vows remain[/u]. From the beginning of probation, the member is bound to observe the laws of the new institute.
§2 By profession in the new institute the member is incorporated into it, and the earlier vows, rights and obligations cease.

Edited July 2, 2011 by MithLuin