Cloistered Nuns

[zunshynn]

I was cleaning out my old computer, and I came across a response I had started to this thread sometime before Christmas, when it was still active... I had gotten busy with schoolwork and planned on coming back to it.

I was just going to drop it since I don't like constantly bumping old threads, but I did spend a fair amount of time on my response, so I'm going to anyway. Sorry it's so long!



Personally, I entered a monastery that did have a "live in" experience more or less, at the time. I was allowed to go into the enclosure and visit inside the monastery and "live the life" during the day, although I didn't sleep in the enclosure but a guest house. The constitutions of the PCPA allows for aspirants to live in the monastery for up to three months, although I don't know if any of the monasteries actually did that, at least for that long. Even if I had not gone into the enclosure before hand and only spoke to some of the sisters at the grille, I think that I would have still entered because the call that I had at the time would not have been changed by that. I didn't enter OLAM because my "live-in" experience gave me this sure sense that I "fit in" with the sisters, or that I knew what the day-to-day life would really be like, but because I felt called to their apostolate of perpetual adoration and to their charism as Franciscans dedicated to offering thanksgiving to God.

Personally, I don't think that a week or two or even a month "living" religious life as an aspirant really gives any substantial impression of what the life is like, or of what the community is like. I honestly think that one of the biggest differences is the grace of actually "belonging" to this community... That grace is what allows you to KNOW you're in the right place... it isn't in "testing it out" and seeing if it fits, because really, you aren't "living it." You could go through all of the exercises of religious life but you really aren't living religious life until you actually are a religious. I honestly believe that the grace that comes with actually "belonging" to the order. You can't really know what it's like until you actually have the grace.

And there is most definitely a grace that comes with entrance that you did not have before that allows you to live the life. There is absolutely a grace that is given when one receives the habit. It is the grace that allows a person to live a life that naturally speaking, they may never have been able to live. So a live-in experience before that, before one is given the grace to live it that they are given at entrance, really may not give one a clearer idea of God's will. I'm not saying that God doesn't bestow graces of discernment upon people during live-in experiences, but I don't think that God can only work in that way, and I think it's wrong to place that stipulation upon Him.

That is not to say that there are not practical aspects that come into play in religious life, and practical aspects certainly should be considered. I mean, it would be kind of crazy for someone who has never had an interest in nursing, for example, to join an order dedicated to nursing just because it "feels good" but after careful discernment someone might really come to the conclusion that even though a community is not what they thought would be a fit, that is actually where God is calling them. In the same way, I think it is quite possible for someone to know, after careful reflection and prayer, that a community is where God is calling them without actually going into the enclosure before their entrance.

It is also important to bear in mind that postulancy really is a genuine live in experience. Postulancy does consist of seriously discerning if it is your vocation and where God wants you, aided by the grace that comes with that particular time in formation. That's why you don't profess final vows the day you enter, no matter how sure you are that you're going to stay there! You only get the grace you need for the day... you won't get tomorrow's grace before you need it!

I know a number of people who had live-ins with different communities that were EXACTLY what they thought they wanted, and yet, they weren't at peace because God did not want them there, and as such, did not give them the grace for that. In fact, they often ended up entering in other places where their first live-in experience had them convinced it was not a fit, or entering a place that did not have a live-in experience, and they are extraordinarily happy. Answering the call to religious life is not always "logical". Sometimes it doesn't make sense, but because it's grace that allows for a person to live.

While some communities have decided that it is fitting to allow serious aspirants to have "live-in" experiences and I think that's great and certainly has its own value, I think that there is definitely also a value in a community choosing to remain with the time-honored tradition of not doing so. Traditions like that are beautiful, and I think should not be set aside too rashly. I also think that it's very easy for someone looking on the outside to say that certain traditions of religious life are unreasonable and impractical. That mentality is SO prevalent in our culture... that we have to try everything out before we think it's reasonable to commit to it. I mean, just look at all the people who think it absurd to marry someone without living with them first. But we know the effects of that. The fact is, the sacrament of matrimony gives two people the grace to live married life, a grace that is given to them without their "trying it out" first. It's the grace of matrimony that actually makes it so they are living married life. Two people could live together and externally do everything that married life would entail, but without that grace they are not really living married life.

The point I'm trying to make is, is that God can, and does call people to monasteries that do not have live-in experiences, and if one refuses to consider a community you may very well be refusing to accept God's will. If you have peace with the thought of entering somewhere without a live-in, and believe that God is calling you there, then don't refuse Him! If you are very serious about a community and they do have a live-in experience, that's awesome, do it! But I would not hinge your decision to enter or discern with them on that. Personally, I think it would be really sad for someone's parents to withhold their complete support because of something like that. Who are we to insist that God operate through the ways we think are "reasonable"?

[awyers]

Wow! Thanks for posting that Zunshynn. That was such a well phrased clarification of my own experiences and a huge answer to prayer for me

[zunshynn]

[quote name='Piobaire' date='06 January 2010 - 06:40 AM' timestamp='1262785252' post='2030817']
Wow! Thanks for posting that Zunshynn. That was such a well phrased clarification of my own experiences and a huge answer to prayer for me
[/quote]

oh, sure, I was happy anybody even read it, it was so long! I wish I wasn't so verbose sometimes!

[brightsadness]

[quote name='zunshynn' date='05 January 2010 - 02:45 PM' timestamp='1262727938' post='2030375']
I was cleaning out my old computer, and I came across a response I had started to this thread sometime before Christmas, when it was still active... I had gotten busy with schoolwork and planned on coming back to it. [img]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/public/style_emoticons/default/lol.gif[/img]

I was just going to drop it since I don't like constantly bumping old threads, but I did spend a fair amount of time on my response, so I'm going to anyway. Sorry it's so long!



Personally, I entered a monastery that did have a "live in" experience more or less, at the time. I was allowed to go into the enclosure and visit inside the monastery and "live the life" during the day, although I didn't sleep in the enclosure but a guest house. The constitutions of the PCPA allows for aspirants to live in the monastery for up to three months, although I don't know if any of the monasteries actually did that, at least for that long. Even if I had not gone into the enclosure before hand and only spoke to some of the sisters at the grille, I think that I would have still entered because the call that I had at the time would not have been changed by that. I didn't enter OLAM because my "live-in" experience gave me this sure sense that I "fit in" with the sisters, or that I knew what the day-to-day life would really be like, but because I felt called to their apostolate of perpetual adoration and to their charism as Franciscans dedicated to offering thanksgiving to God.

Personally, I don't think that a week or two or even a month "living" religious life as an aspirant really gives any substantial impression of what the life is like, or of what the community is like. I honestly think that one of the biggest differences is the grace of actually "belonging" to this community... That grace is what allows you to KNOW you're in the right place... it isn't in "testing it out" and seeing if it fits, because really, you aren't "living it." You could go through all of the exercises of religious life but you really aren't living religious life until you actually are a religious. I honestly believe that the grace that comes with actually "belonging" to the order. You can't really know what it's like until you actually have the grace.

And there is most definitely a grace that comes with entrance that you did not have before that allows you to live the life. There is absolutely a grace that is given when one receives the habit. It is the grace that allows a person to live a life that naturally speaking, they may never have been able to live. So a live-in experience before that, before one is given the grace to live it that they are given at entrance, really may not give one a clearer idea of God's will. I'm not saying that God doesn't bestow graces of discernment upon people during live-in experiences, but I don't think that God can only work in that way, and I think it's wrong to place that stipulation upon Him.

That is not to say that there are not practical aspects that come into play in religious life, and practical aspects certainly should be considered. I mean, it would be kind of crazy for someone who has never had an interest in nursing, for example, to join an order dedicated to nursing just because it "feels good" but after careful discernment someone might really come to the conclusion that even though a community is not what they thought would be a fit, that is actually where God is calling them. In the same way, I think it is quite possible for someone to know, after careful reflection and prayer, that a community is where God is calling them without actually going into the enclosure before their entrance.

It is also important to bear in mind that postulancy really is a genuine live in experience. Postulancy does consist of seriously discerning if it is your vocation and where God wants you, aided by the grace that comes with that particular time in formation. That's why you don't profess final vows the day you enter, no matter how sure you are that you're going to stay there! You only get the grace you need for the day... you won't get tomorrow's grace before you need it!

I know a number of people who had live-ins with different communities that were EXACTLY what they thought they wanted, and yet, they weren't at peace because God did not want them there, and as such, did not give them the grace for that. In fact, they often ended up entering in other places where their first live-in experience had them convinced it was not a fit, or entering a place that did not have a live-in experience, and they are extraordinarily happy. Answering the call to religious life is not always "logical". Sometimes it doesn't make sense, but because it's grace that allows for a person to live.

While some communities have decided that it is fitting to allow serious aspirants to have "live-in" experiences and I think that's great and certainly has its own value, I think that there is definitely also a value in a community choosing to remain with the time-honored tradition of not doing so. Traditions like that are beautiful, and I think should not be set aside too rashly. I also think that it's very easy for someone looking on the outside to say that certain traditions of religious life are unreasonable and impractical. That mentality is SO prevalent in our culture... that we have to try everything out before we think it's reasonable to commit to it. I mean, just look at all the people who think it absurd to marry someone without living with them first. But we know the effects of that. The fact is, the sacrament of matrimony gives two people the grace to live married life, a grace that is given to them without their "trying it out" first. It's the grace of matrimony that actually makes it so they are living married life. Two people could live together and externally do everything that married life would entail, but without that grace they are not really living married life.

The point I'm trying to make is, is that God can, and does call people to monasteries that do not have live-in experiences, and if one refuses to consider a community you may very well be refusing to accept God's will. If you have peace with the thought of entering somewhere without a live-in, and believe that God is calling you there, then don't refuse Him! If you are very serious about a community and they do have a live-in experience, that's awesome, do it! But I would not hinge your decision to enter or discern with them on that. Personally, I think it would be really sad for someone's parents to withhold their complete support because of something like that. Who are we to insist that God operate through the ways we think are "reasonable"?
[/quote]


So helpful. Thank you. [img]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/public/style_emoticons/default/twothumbsup.gif[/img]

[vee]

I read it too Zunshynn and while this may be an old thread and your post a bit longer than usual it was good that you posted it. For one there are probably people who read it but never reply even though it helped them. I always try to remember this when I post something online and that is it can stay online for years Of course if its something helpful and worthwhile then thats a good thing.

[AccountDeleted]

Zunshynn - I agree with you that although a live-in experience is important, the postulancy is also a live-in experience of its own. Thank you for your wonderful post.

In Wolverhampton I had no live-in experience, although they allowed them, because I was coming from overseas and knew that I wanted to be a Carmelite and didn't feel that I needed to go back home to wait and then return again. I don't think that a live-in would have changed what happend, but this kind of thing can't really be determined via hindsight. I stayed eight months and still love them so very much - I would have to say that I was basically "formed" at Wolverhampton. When I look back now on why I left, I am not sure that I did the right thing, but at the time it seemed right to me for what I was going through, so I can't second guess my decision now. One other woman did come for a 6 week live-in while I was there and although she decided not to return to Wolverhampton, she did enter later back in an Australian Carmel. She loved her time at Wolverhampton too but felt very Australian and wanted to be in an Australian Carmel. Culture sometimes plays a very significant part in feeling a "fit" with a community (although it is not always a problem and is just one factor in the whole discernment process).

At Edmonton I did a one week live-in before entering, and stayed two months. I was pretty sure after two weeks that this was not the right community for me, although they might be perfect for someone else, but I wanted not to make a hasty decision and to give it every possible chance of success. I have no regrets about my decision there as I still know that we were not a right fit for each other.

At Kirk Edge, they do no allow live-ins, so I entered as a postulant, and was there for 4 months and would have stayed forever if I had been allowed to. It was the Prioress in this case who decided that I was a not a right fit for them, so I must accept this as God's will as heartbreaking as it still is for me after four months away from them.


With the Hermits of Bethlehem, I spent two months doing a live-in before deciding that I was not called to be a hermit, and I needed more community life. I love them all though and stay in touch with Father Romano. And with Rosalind I spent two months living with four women as we discerned whether to join her community when it is finally approved. There, Rosalind and I mutually agreed that I was not a fit for an evangelical life despite my enormous respect for her and her work. I spent only one week doing a live-in with a newer community in Detroit, working with the homeless, but immediately I knew that I was not called to this very active apostolate, although I learned so much from my time there.

I think that one needs to be open to whatever experience the community is able to offer, and although a live-in would be fantastic, it does seem as if postulancy is really just another way of describing a live-in. I didn't see much difference between those times I was officially a "live-in" and those times I was officially a "postulant". Perhaps there might be less "guilt" attached to leaving after doing a live-in visit than after being a postulant, but that probably depends on the individual.

As a mother, I would definitely prefer that my daughter do a live-in visit, just so she doesn't feel constrained to stay if it doesn't feel right. But this just isn't always possible for some communities, so I think that the postulancy may be the only other option in some cases. It is a tough one, for sure but discerning a religious vocation is like discerning marriage, it is something that takes all of one's mind and heart and soul, and it is so important that one just has to accept that God is in control and to be open to His Will, even if it hurts sometimes.