Now We're Hearing About Sexual Abuse Covered Up In Dublin Ireland

[Antigonos]

[quote name='Antigonos' date='30 November 2009 - 05:06 PM' timestamp='1259590015' post='2011903']
Some years ago I attended a therapy group which included a number of clergymen. One, who was Episcopalian and married, was having problems with what he perceived as his bisexuality. He was also black and married to the daughter of a Southern army colonel. So he definitely had a multiplicity of issues. Another was a former Episcopalian priest, who had taken a vow of celibacy early in his religious life and had come to see that he had chosen this way as a means of denying his homosexuality. After leaving the priesthood, he had been in a stable homosexual relationship for decades. He was adamant that a certain kind of man in denial was very common in the clergy.

There isn't any doubt in my mind that, as someone else posted, the position of authority [and morality] that the clergy has makes it easy for them to abuse children if they already have a predeliction that makes them go that way. There have been recent scandals in the Orthodox Jewish community, too, and rabbis are universally married. Further, if boys too young to have a clear idea of their own sexuality are sent to seminaries and indoctrinated that they must live celibate lives, they often cannot deal with their desires when their hormones kick in. Until fairly recently, in some places boys as young as 12 were expected to be able to choose celibacy for their entire lives, which is unreal and a recipe for disaster. The Episcopal Church in the US was quite progressive -- already in the 60s they sent troubled clergy to therapy -- but the Catholic Church has lagged behind.

Irish culture is quite sexually repressed. Both men and women tend to marry late, there is a quite large number which never marry at all, and the influence of the Church is very pervasive.
[/quote]

[Antigonos]

Sorry about the multiple posting[img]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/public/style_emoticons/default/sadder.gif[/img]

[JimR-OCDS]

Dr Phillip Jenkins, a non-Catholic professor of religious studies at Pennsylvania State University,
did a study on the issue of priest sexual abuse, about 5 years ago.

I his study, he found that sex abuse by Catholic priest, was about 1.8% of the total population of Catholic Priest. [url="http://www.catholiceducation.org/articles/religion/re0534.html"]http://www.catholiceducation.org/articles/religion/re0534.html[/url]

Note, this link is a reprint of the original article which was in the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette, and not
something Catholic Education spun.


Most of the sex abuse was that by homosexual priest, with young teenage boys, not prepubescent children. Many of the teen boys themselves, were exploring their own homosexual leanings.


The other issue, why did Bishops supposedly cover up, and transfer priest who were caught in sexual abuse?

Because, 20 and 30 years ago, this is the way the psychologist and law enforcement officials, along with the parents of the victims, preferred to handle sex abuse, not just by priest, but by anyone.

The negative stigma a 15 year old would suffer among his peers, from the knowledge that he was sexually molested by a priest, was worse than the perpetrator would receive in prison.

Victims of rape, were not protected by the now "Rape Shield," law, back when these cases took place. Sexually abuse victims certainly were not, even today.

The real motivation for the majority of lawsuits today, is money. The victims who bring the lawsuits against the Church, do so, not because the Church hid the story, but because they think the Church has tons of money. If it was because the Church hid the story, why not sue their own parents, for it is they, who most often didn't want the story making it into the papers, because of the negative stigma, their child would suffer from.

The other issue is pedophilia itself. Fr Benedict Groschel, who is a clinical psychologist stated in his book, that the term pedophilia wasn't even in psychology text books 30 years ago. The condition was treated as a temporary disorder, that could be cured. Today we know different, but for the professionals in the field 25 plus years ago, they did not.

Was there abuse... you bet their was. Did the Church make mistakes in handling the cases...yes and especially as in the more recent cases like that of Cardinal Law, former Bishop of the Boston Archdioceses. He not only hid priest abuse cases, but he wrote a glowing letter of approval to get known pedophile out of his dioceses and transferred out to California.

The bottom line here is, the Church, in the USA, handled sex abuse cases according to the protocol, recommended by the professionals at that time. Other institutions followed the same suit, but because they Catholic Church is who she is, the scandal made the headlines while others were kept silent.


Jim

[cmotherofpirl]

Yes so much of it is clearly about money. Our diocese here [Pittsburgh] was sued by people who claimed the abuse happened 40 years ago and the priest had been dead 20 YEARS!!!! That kind of croutons is ridiculous. If you haven't dealt with it 40 years, all the money in the world isn't gonna help you now.

[CatherineM]

One of the priests that caused a big pay out in St. Pete was one we got from Boston that had originally come from Ireland. At some point those who passed the buck need to be held accountable for some of the mess.

[Ziggamafu]

[quote name='JimR-OCDS' date='30 November 2009 - 09:26 AM' timestamp='1259591164' post='2011910']
Dr Phillip Jenkins, a non-Catholic professor of religious studies at Pennsylvania State University,
did a study on the issue of priest sexual abuse, about 5 years ago.

I his study, he found that sex abuse by Catholic priest, was about 1.8% of the total population of Catholic Priest. [url="http://www.catholiceducation.org/articles/religion/re0534.html"]http://www.catholiceducation.org/articles/religion/re0534.html[/url]

Note, this link is a reprint of the original article which was in the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette, and not
something Catholic Education spun.


Most of the sex abuse was that by homosexual priest, with young teenage boys, not prepubescent children. Many of the teen boys themselves, were exploring their own homosexual leanings.


The other issue, why did Bishops supposedly cover up, and transfer priest who were caught in sexual abuse?

Because, 20 and 30 years ago, this is the way the psychologist and law enforcement officials, along with the parents of the victims, preferred to handle sex abuse, not just by priest, but by anyone.

The negative stigma a 15 year old would suffer among his peers, from the knowledge that he was sexually molested by a priest, was worse than the perpetrator would receive in prison.

Victims of rape, were not protected by the now "Rape Shield," law, back when these cases took place. Sexually abuse victims certainly were not, even today.

The real motivation for the majority of lawsuits today, is money. The victims who bring the lawsuits against the Church, do so, not because the Church hid the story, but because they think the Church has tons of money. If it was because the Church hid the story, why not sue their own parents, for it is they, who most often didn't want the story making it into the papers, because of the negative stigma, their child would suffer from.

The other issue is pedophilia itself. Fr Benedict Groschel, who is a clinical psychologist stated in his book, that the term pedophilia wasn't even in psychology text books 30 years ago. The condition was treated as a temporary disorder, that could be cured. Today we know different, but for the professionals in the field 25 plus years ago, they did not.

Was there abuse... you bet their was. Did the Church make mistakes in handling the cases...yes and especially as in the more recent cases like that of Cardinal Law, former Bishop of the Boston Archdioceses. He not only hid priest abuse cases, but he wrote a glowing letter of approval to get known pedophile out of his dioceses and transferred out to California.

The bottom line here is, the Church, in the USA, handled sex abuse cases according to the protocol, recommended by the professionals at that time. Other institutions followed the same suit, but because they Catholic Church is who she is, the scandal made the headlines while others were kept silent.


Jim
[/quote]

Wow. Thank you for that; the most precise and concise explanation I have ever seen on this issue.

[Antigonos]

[quote name='JimR-OCDS' date='30 November 2009 - 05:26 PM' timestamp='1259591164' post='2011910']
Dr Phillip Jenkins, a non-Catholic professor of religious studies at Pennsylvania State University,
did a study on the issue of priest sexual abuse, about 5 years ago.

I his study, he found that sex abuse by Catholic priest, was about 1.8% of the total population of Catholic Priest. [url="http://www.catholiceducation.org/articles/religion/re0534.html"]http://www.catholice...ion/re0534.html[/url]

I think there is no reliable way to know how much abuse there was and is; many people, both the priests and the victims, would hardly admit to it.

[Anomaly]

[quote name='Marie-Therese' date='30 November 2009 - 12:56 AM' timestamp='1259556960' post='2011746']
OK...
That being said, I think the Church is doing its utmost to flush this moral cancer from the Body of Christ. Prayers for all who are affected by it.
[/quote]Given the standard of moral behavior that should be established for people running and ministering in a "Church" that supposedly directly affects the eternal salvation of their followers, the "Church" has done little to properly address the perpetrators. Humans are prone to make mistakes and it's sad the % occurrence in priests compared to school workers is not significantly less. However, violators in the school system are dealt with more clearly, morally, and effectively. It is not a valid excuse to claim Bishops were just following the best advice at the time. The scandals in the US and Ireland are a direct result of the attitude of church leaders being above the same accountability of a common school teacher. Imagine if school superintendents pervasively transferred molesting teachers to another school...

Edited December 1, 2009 by Anomaly

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='Anomaly' date='01 December 2009 - 05:54 AM' timestamp='1259668445' post='2012450']
Given the standard of moral behavior that should be established for people running and ministering in a "Church" that supposedly directly affects the eternal salvation of their followers, the "Church" has done little to properly address the perpetrators. Humans are prone to make mistakes and it's sad the % occurrence in priests compared to school workers is not significantly less. However, violators in the school system are dealt with more clearly, morally, and effectively. It is not a valid excuse to claim Bishops were just following the best advice at the time. The scandals in the US and Ireland are a direct result of the attitude of church leaders being above the same accountability of a common school teacher. Imagine if school superintendents pervasively transferred molesting teachers to another school...
[/quote]
Do we know absolutely for sure that they did not?

[Winchester]

[quote name='Anomaly' date='01 December 2009 - 06:54 AM' timestamp='1259668445' post='2012450']
Given the standard of moral behavior that should be established for people running and ministering in a "Church" that supposedly directly affects the eternal salvation of their followers, the "Church" has done little to properly address the perpetrators. Humans are prone to make mistakes and it's sad the % occurrence in priests compared to school workers is not significantly less. However, violators in the school system are dealt with more clearly, morally, and effectively. It is not a valid excuse to claim Bishops were just following the best advice at the time. The scandals in the US and Ireland are a direct result of the attitude of church leaders being above the same accountability of a common school teacher. Imagine if school superintendents pervasively transferred molesting teachers to another school...
[/quote]
kid,
Actually, that's been done.

Don't forget, it's the state who lets them out to offend again. Go tell Jessica Lunsford's family how great the government handles sex offenders.

And we all noticed the straw man.

[Socrates]

[quote name='Marie-Therese' date='29 November 2009 - 11:56 PM' timestamp='1259556960' post='2011746']
OK...

1. I don't believe it has anything to do with homosexuality. Just because a person is afflicted with same sex attractions does not mean that they are inclined to pederasty or pedophilia.

2. A church, ANY church, is a logical target for a sexual predator. Inherent trust, emotional connection, and open access to plenty of children. Doesn't take a huge leap in logic to understand the appeal. Not to mention the fact that children could easily be manipulated into believing that because an abuser was a member of the clergy that there would be some Divine punishment for disobedience. It's a complex dynamic.

3. It seems to be more prevalent in the Church because when a priest is a molester it makes the news, and when a cover up of molestation by Church authorities is exposed, it's even bigger news. Think about it. Father so-and-so has his face on the 6 o'clock news. Bubba who has molested a child in his trailer in Hoboken never gets mentioned. No aspersions should be inferred about people named Bubba, trailers, or Hoboken, btw. LOL

4. I understand the desire to seek out a safe community to live in, but the sad truth of the world is that you aren't going to find one. Sure, some are better than others, but there is no corner of our world left untouched by evil.

5. One of the best quotes I've heard on this topic came from Fr. Corapi, who was discussing the topic with his goddaughter. She said, "Letting pedophiles get married would solve the problem? If they can't keep one vow, why should you think they would keep any other?" Marriage has nothing to do with it. Sure, priests are lonely sometimes. However, loneliness doesn't make a person molest children. That is an inherent disorder that marriage won't magically erase. Pedophiles are pedophiles, no matter their particular line of work. It just so happens that the offense is just so much more morally egregious when a man of God is the perpetrator.

That being said, I think the Church is doing its utmost to flush this moral cancer from the Body of Christ. Prayers for all who are affected by it.
[/quote]
The John Jay study showed that 81% of the clerical abuse was of boys, not girls, and the great majority involved boys who were past the age of puberty.
Thus, most of the abuse was homosexual in nature, rather than pedophilia, which involves sexual attraction to pre-pubescent children.

This abuse the increase in homosexuality in seminaries starting in the 1960s.
(And lest I get jumped on, I'm not claiming most homosexuals abuse teenage boys, simply that most of the abuse was homosexual.)

The problem has nothing to do with celibacy. Celibacy does not cause normal "straight" men to molest boys.
The problem is young men entering the seminary with pre-existing sexual disorders, and the growth of a homosexual subculture in seminaries.

Of course, the root problem is a lack of holiness, and a decline in the priesthood being seen as a desirable option. When many good manly men accept the call to holy priesthood, there's no room in the seminaries for the creeps.

[CatherineM]

[quote name='Anomaly' date='01 December 2009 - 05:54 AM' timestamp='1259668445' post='2012450']
Given the standard of moral behavior that should be established for people running and ministering in a "Church" that supposedly directly affects the eternal salvation of their followers, the "Church" has done little to properly address the perpetrators. Humans are prone to make mistakes and it's sad the % occurrence in priests compared to school workers is not significantly less. However, violators in the school system are dealt with more clearly, morally, and effectively. It is not a valid excuse to claim Bishops were just following the best advice at the time. The scandals in the US and Ireland are a direct result of the attitude of church leaders being above the same accountability of a common school teacher. Imagine if school superintendents pervasively transferred molesting teachers to another school...
[/quote]
What exactly do you think they should have done rather than follow the advice of the best experts available to them at the time?

[little_miss_late]

[quote name='Anomaly' date='01 December 2009 - 06:54 AM' timestamp='1259668445' post='2012450']
\ However, violators in the school system are dealt with more clearly, morally, and effectively.
[/quote]

Not in the public schools I attended.

[Marie-Therese]

[quote name='Winchester' date='01 December 2009 - 11:11 AM' timestamp='1259683888' post='2012509']
kid,
Actually, that's been done.

Don't forget, it's the state who lets them out to offend again. Go tell Jessica Lunsford's family how great the government handles sex offenders.

And we all noticed the straw man.
[/quote]



When I was in high school one of our coaches was confronted by school authorities because of complaints by several girls that he threatened them with F's if they did not sleep with him. Many girls did, unfortunately, but a few brave ones reported him. I felt so sorry for his wife, because she was also a teacher at the school and pregnant when this happened.

He was transferred to another school outside the district. Yep, a 'clear, moral and effective' way of dealing with sexual predators.

No one here, or, I daresay, anywhere else would dispute that the instances of abuse inside the Church were often handled poorly. The issue of sex abuse is not neatly encapsulated by statistics and taglines on news broadcasts, and it involves a lot of complex psychological and ethical repercussions. Were mistakes made by the Church? Yes, of course. Tell me, though, how many cases were handled appropriately? Do you hear about THAT on the news? Nope. It doesn't sell.

Besides, if you are looking to the public school system in the US for an example of what is 'clear, moral or effective' then you're barking up the wrong tree.

[add]

[i]The Code of Canon Law stipulates that priests involved in sexualabuse cases must be “punished with just punishments, not excludingexpulsion from clerical state”[5]. The American Bishops Conferenceissued in 2002 “essential norms for diocesan/eparchial policies dealingwith allegations of sexual abuse of minors by priests or deacons”. Theguidelines mention among others that “in case of sufficient evidencethe bishop will withdraw the accused from exercising the ministry,impose or prohibit residence in a given place or territory ... pendingthe outcome of the process.” [/i]

Let's face it! the Catholic Church is a big target with bigpockets. Most Protestant churches are individual corporations. In theCatholic Church, the diocese is the corporation, so it has a big bankaccount. When legal action is involved, the media focus on dollaramounts, and the Catholic Church has deep pockets because of itsfinancial structure.[b]That does NOT excuse the behavior of our priests nor does it makethe activity less criminal or less of a sin. However, it does present adifferent view of the problem than that which is generally perceived bythe public![/b]
Someone was very harsh on one site and said how he would never enter aCatholic Church or allow his children to...because of the "priestabuse" situation.
I would asked him if he would ever allow his childrenthen to enter a public school (personally, I home-schooled to protect my children) or if he felt that the entire"philosophy" behind public school systems was wrong...
He couldn'tbelieve that the problem wasn't just in the Catholic Church - but ashas been pointed out here - is a Human problem...that crosses over manydifferent areas.
He wanted a specific example and I said to justtype in the name of any city in the United States and then the words"teacher accused of sexual abuse".

All of that being saidthough - It is a problem that "shouldn't exist" and has caused muchgrief for people who share our faith and even more problems for thosewho don't - and who are still trying to understand the Catholic Faith. Rather than trying to "defend" things - everything and anything must bedone to correct this.
I am glad - to some extent- that these things have been brought into the light.
Therecan be no more hiding of these situations or trying to move priestsfrom one parish to another....and that is a good thing.

source: [url="http://www.ncregister.com/daily/vatican_sets_record_straight_on_sexual_abuse/"]the link[/url]