One "big Mac" And Damnation Follows?

[dUSt]

[quote name='the lumberjack' date='Apr 7 2004, 01:58 PM'] what does that have to do with this UNvoluntary fast that you are TOLD to go thru. Yes, Christ said WHEN we fast...and not IF we fast...

but CHRIST never said, when you fast on this Friday, on the first leap year of the New Millenium...

and the Quotes from Scripture pretty much lay it out for you.

and if you say that the Church has a different interpretation of what The Bible says, alls I can say is...whoa. [/quote]
You first seem to argue against the whole notion of fasting, then you seem to argue that fasting is required, but according to when we want to do it--and not teh Church.

Again, this falls into personal interpretation of the Bible--personal interpretation of Christ's rules--which totally baffles me. Personally, I could never give myself that much credit.

[Livin_the_MASS]

[quote name='the lumberjack' date='Apr 7 2004, 02:58 PM']what does that have to do with this UNvoluntary fast that you are TOLD to go thru.  Yes, Christ said WHEN we fast...and not IF we fast...

but CHRIST never said, when you fast on this Friday, on the first leap year of the New Millenium...

and the Quotes from Scripture pretty much lay it out for you.

and if you say that the Church has a different interpretation of what The Bible says, alls I can say is...whoa.[/quote]
[quote]Then the angel of the Lord spoke to Philip, "Get up and head south on the road that goes down from Jerusalem to Gaza, the desert route."

So he got up and set out. Now there was an Ethiopian eunuch, a court official of the Candace, 8 that is, the queen of the Ethiopians, in charge of her entire treasury, who had come to Jerusalem to worship,

and was returning home. Seated in his chariot, he was reading the prophet Isaiah.

The Spirit said to Philip, "Go and join up with that chariot."

Philip ran up and heard him reading Isaiah the prophet and said, "Do you understand what you are reading?"

He replied, "How can I, unless someone instructs me?" So he invited Philip to get in and sit with him.

This was the scripture passage he was reading: "Like a sheep he was led to the slaughter, and as a lamb before its shearer is silent, so he opened not his mouth.

In (his) humiliation justice was denied him. Who will tell of his posterity? For his life is taken from the earth."

Then the eunuch said to Philip in reply, "I beg you, about whom is the prophet saying this? About himself, or about someone else?"

Then Philip opened his mouth and, beginning with this scripture passage, he proclaimed Jesus to him.

As they traveled along the road they came to some water, and the eunuch said, "Look, there is water. What is to prevent my being baptized?"

Then he ordered the chariot to stop, and Philip and the eunuch both went down into the water, and he baptized him.[/quote]

Acts 8:26-38

This passage of Scripture proves that it is up to the judgment of the Church which divinely conferred communion and ministry of watching over and interptreting the word of God.

[Livin_the_MASS]

No reply LJ?

[dUSt]

[quote name='the lumberjack' date='Apr 7 2004, 02:13 PM'] you show me in your catholic collection of coordinated collaborations where it says its okay to go AGAINST the Bible...and in doing so, against God. [/quote]
What?

But you hit a good point. You said to go against the Bible is to go against God. This is true. The problem is in translating and interpreting the Bible--that's where we need the Church's guidance. So therefore--to go against the Church is to go against God, because the Church is the only earthly authority that can give us the correct interpretation.

It all falls back on individuals assuming that they have the correct interpretation. As a Catholic, we don't rely on individuals--we rely on the collective body of Christ, as a whole--unified under on Church.

God bless.

[the lumberjack]

[quote name='dUSt' date='Apr 7 2004, 02:15 PM'] You first seem to argue against the whole notion of fasting, then you seem to argue that fasting is required, but according to when we want to do it--and not teh Church.

Again, this falls into personal interpretation of the Bible--personal interpretation of Christ's rules--which totally baffles me. Personally, I could never give myself that much credit. [/quote]
CHRIST said, "WHEN you fast..."

NOT

When you ARE TOLD TO fast...

its not personal interpretation, its what the Bible says.

Red, Black, and White.

[Bruce S]

[quote]Remembrance of the Passion


In November 1966, the U.S. bishops did just that. The bishops' conference's "Complementary Norms on Penance and Abstinence" [b]released American Catholics from a strict obligation under pain of sin to abstain from meat on Fridays outside of Lent. [/b]

But the same document insisted that Friday was to remain a special day of penance throughout the year: "Friday should be in each week something of what Lent is in the entire year. For this reason we urge all to prepare for that weekly Easter that comes with each Sunday by freely making of every Friday a day of self-denial and mortification in prayerful remembrance of the passion of Jesus Christ."


The bishops went on to say that, among these now freely chosen penitential practices, [b]"we give first place to abstinence from flesh meat. We do so in the hope that the Catholic community will ordinarily continue to abstain from meat by free choice as formerly we did in obedience to Church law. " [/b]

This change came in the wake of Vatican II, a time when adjustments in liturgical and disciplinary law, not to mention theological dissent and some unapproved innovations, were causing a stir among the faithful and in the media.


It seems that the Friday-abstinence story was cast by reporters primarily in terms of "no more going to hell for eating a hamburger on Friday" rather than a call to continue the tradition of Friday penance, embraced out of love, and with leeway for more variety.


[color=red][u][b]Perhaps the nuances and distinctions were preached in pulpits at the time,[/b][/u][/color] but many Catholics did not follow through. Time went on, two new generations have matured and the notion of Friday abstinence or penance has largely disappeared from many Catholics' conscience.

[url="http://catholiccitizens.org/platform/platformview.asp?c=10976"]http://catholiccitizens.org/platform/platf...iew.asp?c=10976[/url]

[/quote]

Softpedling what we WERE TAUGHT WAS GOD's "Law" now? I was definately, unabigously, clearly, specifically taught that to eat meat on Friday, was sin so grevious that if unconfessed, damnation followed.

No way was that a mere suggestion in the 1960s and before.

It was black and white.

[dUSt]

[quote name='Bruce S' date='Apr 7 2004, 02:14 PM']
Did you catch the WAIVER, for St. Patricks Day of the meat prohibition?

Now again, tell me that this is of God, and not of men?

A Bishop dispensing of the tradition, removing the curse because it was inconvenient for the Irish congregants?

Gimmie a break here guys, sheesh, DOUBLE SHEESH. [/quote]
Bruce. You still don't seem to get it man. The Church is granted apostolic authority. It makes the rules, it can bend them--all with the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.

[Jake Huether]

Read my post at the end of page 2, if you haven't already. Thanks.

[dUSt]

[quote name='the lumberjack' date='Apr 7 2004, 02:14 PM'] c'mon dust...you know what the rest of my post says!

don't just cut and paste the junk that makes me look like a loner cult jerk. [/quote]
I was debunking your implication that the Church was simply a group of men making up their own rules. If you look at the Church as Catholics do, as the Body of Christ, you wouldn't be so opposed to being obedient to Her.

[Livin_the_MASS]

What we would call DEVELOPMENT OF DOCTRINE!

[the lumberjack]

[quote name='dUSt' date='Apr 7 2004, 02:23 PM'] Bruce. You still don't seem to get it man. The Church is granted apostolic authority. It makes the rules, it can bend them--all with the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. [/quote]
WHAT?!?!?!

are you saying that the Roman Catholic Church wrote the Bible? and therefore has the privelige, obligation and duty to bend its ohsocrystalclear guide lines to how it sees fit?

all the while "led by the Holy Ghost"

someone stop this loco motives...this is where I get off.

[Bruce S]

That was why I left the Catholic Church in 1970s'ish.

They changed the rules, and suddenly, it was no longer a mortal sin to eat meat on Fridays.

I could NOT reconcille the thought of people that WERE in hell, having eaten meat and died without confession. [And that was EXACTLY what we were taught then]

What happened to [b]THEM,[/b] did they get a [b]"get out hell free card"[/b] or what? Are they still burning eternally, or does heaven retroactively change too as earthly commands morph over time? Does the Pope or a council have the right to get people OUT of hell now too?

That was the massive crack that got to me, I then looked HARD at the rest of the man made stuff, that we were taught was eternal and of God.

A critical eye toward what is taught as eternal and what is just control of people followed, and is still operative to me today.
[/QUOTE]

[dUSt]

[quote name='the lumberjack' date='Apr 7 2004, 02:19 PM'] CHRIST said, "WHEN you fast..."

NOT

When you ARE TOLD TO fast...

its not personal interpretation, its what the Bible says.

Red, Black, and White. [/quote]
The Bible tells us clearly how, when and for how long to fast? Can you show me where?

[Livin_the_MASS]

[quote name='the lumberjack' date='Apr 7 2004, 03:26 PM'] WHAT?!?!?!

are you saying that the Roman Catholic Church wrote the Bible? and therefore has the privelige, obligation and duty to bend its ohsocrystalclear guide lines to how it sees fit?

all the while "led by the Holy Ghost"

someone stop this loco motives...this is where I get off. [/quote]
The Holy Spirit wrote the Bible, The Holy Spirit guides the Church.

[Livin_the_MASS]

[quote]That was why I left the Catholic Church in 1970s'ish.

They changed the rules, and suddenly, it was no longer a mortal sin to eat meat on Fridays.[/quote]

A lot of people leave the Catholic Church because they don't like our moral guidelines.