One "big Mac" And Damnation Follows?

[Bruce S]

[quote]You, apparently, have a belief system based on personal happiness. I personally don't feel that that type of belief system would bring me closer to Christ--as I feel closest to God when I'm sacrificing my ways for His will.
[/quote]

Personal happiness? Gimmie a break here, being a good Pentecostal fundamentalist is HARDER than being a catholic. You guys get to go to a dance or have a bottle of wine without worry, we are expected to be saints, trust me, being a Catholic is easier in many respects than a fundie.

[dUSt]

[quote name='Bruce S' date='Apr 7 2004, 01:42 PM'] It is really NOT a voluntary fast, for one can GORGE on everything else, it is a SELECTIVE FOOD PROHIBITON... repeat, NOT a fast. [/quote]
Arguing whether or not that giving up meat on Fridays is considered "fasting" or "food prohibition" is irrelevant and pointless. I'm not going to be bated into a dialogue over a definition that teh Church has clearly defined--it's like arguing over the definition of an apple.

And if one gorges on everything else, they defeat the purpose anyway. I figured you'd know this since you use to be Catholic.

[DojoGrant]

One is voluntarily in communion with Christ's Church, so one is also voluntarily performing the penance of abstainance. Heck, one voluntarily believes in God for His salvation.

And no, I continue to not see how it is like the Jewish prohibition of certain foods for the same reasons that I have already laid forth. To be analogous, the Church would be declaring meat a sinful or unclean thing not intended for us to eat. Rather, it is a wonderful thing given for our physical edifcation, which is exactly why we DO give it up, because it is a true spiritual sacrifice.

That should cover both your allegation of volunteering and Judaism.

[the lumberjack]

[quote name='dUSt' date='Apr 7 2004, 01:35 PM'] Again, it is not the meat that puts you in a state of mortal sin--it's one's deliberate act of not being obedient to Christ's Church. [/quote]
and even Peter said, "I am no respecter of persons" so if when you say Christ's church, you mean the governmental system put in place to let everyone know what their place is, and what they should believe...then no. I'm not obedient to that.

I do follow the counsel of those Christians who have shown themselves to be solid Christ-like models.

like Cornelius...from Act 10, you know, when Peter had the dream of MEAT.

[quote]9 On the morrow, as they went on their journey, and drew nigh unto the city, Peter went up upon the housetop to pray about the sixth hour:

10 And he became very hungry, and would have eaten: but while they made ready, he fell into a trance,

11 And saw heaven opened, and a certain vessel descending unto him, as it had been a great sheet knit at the four corners, and let down to the earth:

12 Wherein were all manner of fourfooted beasts of the earth, and wild beasts, and creeping things, and fowls of the air.

13 And there came a voice to him, Rise, Peter; kill, and eat.

14 But Peter said, Not so, Lord; for I have never eaten any thing that is common or unclean.

15 And the voice spake unto him again the second time, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common.

16 This was done thrice: and the vessel was received up again into heaven.

17 Now while Peter doubted in himself what this vision which he had seen should mean, behold, the men which were sent from Cornelius had made enquiry for Simon's house, and stood before the gate,

18 And called, and asked whether Simon, which was surnamed Peter, were lodged there.

19 While Peter thought on the vision, the Spirit said unto him, Behold, three men seek thee.

20 Arise therefore, and get thee down, and go with them, doubting nothing: for I have sent them.[/quote]

and whats this? Simon, which is surnamed Peter...the rock...DOUBTED...even though he was SHOWN not once, not twice, but 3 times.

and what about this?


1Corinthians 10:25-31 (NASB) [quote]{25} Eat anything that is sold in the meat market, without asking questions for conscience' sake; {26} FOR THE EARTH IS THE LORD'S, AND ALL IT CONTAINS. {27} If one of the unbelievers invites you, and you wish to go, eat anything that is set before you, without asking questions for conscience' sake. {28} But if anyone should say to you, "This is meat sacrificed to idols," do not eat it, for the sake of the one who informed you, and for conscience' sake; {29} I mean not your own conscience, but the other man's; for why is my freedom judged by another's conscience? {30} If I partake with thankfulness, why am I slandered concerning that for which I give thanks? {31} Whether, then, you eat or drink or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God.[/quote]

[the lumberjack]

and here's some more from the Bible.

(Romans 14:13-23 NASB) Therefore let us not judge one another anymore, but rather determine this-- not to put an obstacle or a stumbling block in a brother's way. {14} I know and am convinced in the Lord Jesus that nothing is unclean in itself; but to him who thinks anything to be unclean, to him it is unclean. {15} For if because of food your brother is hurt, you are no longer walking according to love. Do not destroy with your food him for whom Christ died.



{16} Therefore do not let what is for you a good thing be spoken of as evil; {17} for the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit. {18} For he who in this way serves Christ is acceptable to God and approved by men. {19} So then let us pursue the things which make for peace and the building up of one another. {20} Do not tear down the work of God for the sake of food.

[Bruce S]

dUSt, empty your PM box, I need to private you with a message, and your box is full.

[Livin_the_MASS]

[quote]Now the church telling you on THIS day you are to, and ONLY THIS item will constitute a failure to do so, and MEAT is the only requirement...[/quote]

It still has to do with obedience. We obey the Church.


[quote]It is really NOT a voluntary fast, for one can GORGE on everything else, it is a SELECTIVE FOOD PROHIBITON... repeat, NOT a fast.[/quote]

Acutally during the season of Lent one can fast from more than just meat. It's about obedience and sacrifice to prepare our minds.


LJ, When the aposteles were picking grain and the phariesses complained about it, Jesus told them while the Bridegroom was with them they did not have to fast, but one day they would have to.

[the lumberjack]

[quote name='Jason' date='Apr 7 2004, 01:54 PM'] LJ, When the aposteles were picking grain and the phariesses complained about it, Jesus told them while the Bridegroom was with them they did not have to fast, but one day they would have to. [/quote]
what does that have to do with this UNvoluntary fast that you are TOLD to go thru. Yes, Christ said WHEN we fast...and not IF we fast...

but CHRIST never said, when you fast on this Friday, on the first leap year of the New Millenium...

and the Quotes from Scripture pretty much lay it out for you.

and if you say that the Church has a different interpretation of what The Bible says, alls I can say is...whoa.

[Livin_the_MASS]

[quote name='the lumberjack' date='Apr 7 2004, 02:58 PM'] what does that have to do with this UNvoluntary fast that you are TOLD to go thru. Yes, Christ said WHEN we fast...and not IF we fast...

but CHRIST never said, when you fast on this Friday, on the first leap year of the New Millenium...

and the Quotes from Scripture pretty much lay it out for you.

and if you say that the Church has a different interpretation of what The Bible says, alls I can say is...whoa. [/quote]
If I understand your post right. Show me in the Bible where it says Bible Alone?

[dUSt]

[quote]and even Peter said, "I am no respecter of persons"  so if when you say Christ's church, you mean the governmental system put in place to let everyone know what their place is, and what they should believe...then no.  I'm not obedient to that.[/quote]
The Church is the Body of Christ--but you knew that from reading teh Bible, right? Are you not obedient to the body of Christ?

[dUSt]

[quote name='Bruce S' date='Apr 7 2004, 01:45 PM']
Personal happiness? Gimmie a break here, being a good Pentecostal fundamentalist is HARDER than being a catholic. You guys get to go to a dance or have a bottle of wine without worry, we are expected to be saints, trust me, being a Catholic is easier in many respects than a fundie. [/quote]
Cool.

But still--it doesn't really matter if you're a good fundie or bad fundie because the moment you were saved absolved you from all future sins, right?

[the lumberjack]

you show me in your catholic collection of coordinated collaborations where it says its okay to go AGAINST the Bible...and in doing so, against God.

[Bruce S]

[quote]Church bans Fenway franks: No meat for faithful at Good Friday opener
By Eric Convey
Thursday, March 11, 2004

Catholic members of Red Sox Nation might be eating tofu at Fenway Park on Opening Day with the Archdiocese of Boston insisting that even baseball is no excuse to eat meat on Good Friday.

    ``The passion for the Red Sox seems to be overriding the Passion of Christ,'' said a dismayed suburban priest who spoke on condition of anonymity.

    Good Friday - the holiest day in the Christian calendar - falls on April 9, the home opener for the Sox, a ritual that usually includes a frank or two, or pizza with pepperoni, or a greasy sausage.

    Faithful Catholics, fearing the wurst, have asked the archdiocese for a waiver from the no-meat rule for the day.

[b][color=red]    In 1995 and 2000, Bernard Cardinal Law allowed local Catholics to eat meat when St. Patrick's Day fell on a Friday during Lent. [/color][/b]

    ``We're already getting all kinds of requests for dispensation to eat meat,'' said the Rev. Christopher J. Coyne, a spokesman for the archdiocese, said yesterday.

    It wasn't even a close call.

    After meeting to discuss the requests, Boston church leaders decided baseball fever was too weak an excuse to duck the no-meat rule, Coyne said.

    Coyne also complained that the game is being held on the day Christians believe Jesus died on the cross.

    ``I would hope it was just an oversight when they were doing the schedule,'' he said. ``I think it's very insensitive to the huge number of people who are Christians and fans.

    ``I for one won't watch the game,'' he added.

    Red Sox officials did not return calls yesterday seeking comment.

      Season-ticket holder and practicing Catholic Anne Sodini said she had not heard any complaints from friends that the game was being held on Good Friday.

    But she said she appreciated that the game against the Toronto Blue Jays was scheduled for 3:05 p.m. instead of the usual daylight start time of 1 p.m.

    ``I like the fact that the game time doesn't fall during the holiest part of Good Friday,'' she said.

    According to Christian tradition, Jesus hung on the cross from noon until 3 p.m.

    Sodini, of Belmont, said she knows many Catholics who abide by the church's prohibition against eating meat on Good Friday during Lent - the 40-day period leading up to Easter.

    If the Good Friday timing is unfortunate for the Red Sox, at least the calendar was not as cruel as in 1998. That year, Good Friday, Passover and Opening Day fell on the same day.

    The Fenway faithful were treated to a Mo Vaughn game-winning grand slam that day but were denied beer at the ballpark.

    Every team in Major League Baseball played on Good Friday that year - drawing the ire of the late New York Archbishop John Cardinal O'Connor. He wrote about his disappointment in his archdiocesan newspaper and boycotted the Yankees and Mets - in part for playing between noon and 3 p.m.

   
[/quote]

Did you catch the WAIVER, for St. Patricks Day of the meat prohibition?

Now again, tell me that this is of God, and not of men?

A Bishop dispensing of the tradition, removing the curse because it was inconvenient for the Irish congregants?

Gimmie a break here guys, sheesh, DOUBLE SHEESH.

[the lumberjack]

[quote name='dUSt' date='Apr 7 2004, 02:11 PM'] The Church is the Body of Christ--but you knew that from reading teh Bible, right? Are you not obedient to the body of Christ? [/quote]
c'mon dust...you know what the rest of my post says!

don't just cut and paste the junk that makes me look like a loner cult jerk.

[Jake Huether]

[quote name='Bruce S' date='Apr 7 2004, 12:42 PM']


[/quote]
[quote]The requirement for fasting is NOT optional, it is commanded by Jesus, in the "WHEN you fast.." clause. I agree that one is to fast.

Now the church telling you on THIS day you are to, and ONLY THIS item will constitute a failure to do so, and MEAT is the only requirement...[/quote]


Actually, everyone has missed this point, unless I've missed someones rebuke. The Church requires us to FAST and ABSTAIN, on Good Friday. Abstain from meat, AND FAST. So, Bruce, we aren't required to "FAST" from meat. We are required to ABSTAIN from meat.

The word abstain implies that it normally isn't a sin. Like one who abstains from sex. Sex isn't necessarily a sin. It is a good thing! But to abstain from it at the appropriate times (like before marriage) is required.

We are also required to FAST, this means one NORMAL size meal that day.


[quote]It is really NOT a voluntary fast, for one can GORGE on everything else, it is a SELECTIVE FOOD PROHIBITON... repeat, NOT a fast.[/quote]


Again, when we are required to abstain, indeed it is okay to "gorge" (unless of course this becomes gluttony). The point of abstinance is to strenthen the will against the temptation to eat meat (something we normally would eat). Abstinance is a different beast from Fasting. It serves the same purpose, but from another angle. The point isn't to "not eat". It is to abstain from a certain "thing" (which was chosen to be meat). The purpose of abstinance is to call our attention to our actions. If we can willfully abstain from meat, then later we can willfully abstain from gossip, or lust, or whatever.

Fasting on the other hand focuses on the same thing, namely stengthening the will, but it fights it a different way. The point of fasting is to "not eat". Again, it calls our attention to our actions. If we can willfully fight the hunger, the temptation of the flesh, then later we can willfully fight agains the temptation of lust, anger, pride, etc.


On the Fridays we are to abstain, it isn't a sin to have full serving of food and get "full". The point is to be aware of not eating meat. We can have fun at a football game, for instance, without lusting after the cheerleaders.

On Good Friday and Ash Wednesday we are asked to abstain and fast (BOTH). So, we can have on normal meal that doesn't include meat. This day, yes, the point is to feel hungry. It's a double blast on the will of the flesh.