Can Good Works Redeem Us?

[Sternhauser]

[quote name='Tony Atonement' date='27 November 2009 - 02:40 AM' timestamp='1259304033' post='2010163']
No one is arguing that Jesus paid the ultimate price, and "know ye not that ye are the temple of God and that the Spirit dwelleth in you?" (1 Cor 3:16). But what you mean by the temple not building itself and how [u]that[/u] responds to my post, must more clearly be explained if I am to answer.
[/quote]

Tony,

Is not "accepting Jesus as your Lord and Saviour" a work in itself that is necessary for salvation? What did Jesus tell people to do in order to be saved? He did not say, "Believe that I will die for your sins, and you're set." He did say, in Matthew 7,

16 By their fruits you will know them. Do people pick grapes from thorn bushes, or figs from thistles?
17 Just so, every good tree bears good fruit, and a rotten tree bears bad fruit.
18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a rotten tree bear good fruit.
19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire.
20 So by their fruits you will know them.
21 "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven,
but only [i]the one who does the will of my Father in heaven.[/i]
22 Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name? Did we not drive out demons in your name? Did we not do mighty deeds in your name?'
23 Then I will declare to them solemnly, 'I never knew you. Depart from me, you evildoers.'

Do you see people who have not accepted Jesus Christ as their "personal Lord and Savior" prophesying in his name? Or driving out demons in his name, when they do not believe in him? (Some Jews tried it and suffered as a result, but were those really the only people that Jesus was speaking of?)

He who [i]does the will[/i] of My Father. What was he speaking of, Tony? Because I don't see anywhere that Jesus (and granted, you have not said it either, here) that all we have to do is accept Jesus Christ as our personal Lord and Saviour. If anything was ever a "doctrine of men," from a "false prophet," that is it. Because Jesus and his disciples never taught anything of the sort.

There are also several instances where Jesus speaks of a difference in the gravity of sins, something most protestants do not acknowledge. "Sin is sin," they say. "The wages of sin is death." Yes. Ultimately. But you can quit that wage labor anytime you want. It is man's choice that causes him to sin. Sin is in the will. Be sure to read 1 John 5:16-17.

And St. James says that faith without works is dead. "So faith also, if it have not works, is dead in itself. But some man will say: Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without works; and I will shew thee, by works, my faith. Thou believest that there is one God. Thou dost well: the devils also believe and tremble. But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?"

How do the words of Jesus: "Anyone [i]who does not remain in me[/i] will be thrown out like a branch and wither; people will gather them and throw them into a fire and they will be burned." (John 15:6) jive with the Protestant teaching of man, "Once saved, always saved?" How can you [i]not[/i] remain with Jesus, if you are always saved?

How can Saint Paul, who certainly accepted Jesus Christ as his personal Lord and Saviour, [i]possibly[/i] say "But I chastise my body, and bring it into subjection: [i]lest perhaps, when I have preached to others, I myself should become a castaway[/i]," if he is "once saved, always saved?"

You've got to come up with something Scriptural that contradicts these statements to defend the Protestant doctrine of men that teaches "once saved, always saved," and "there is no difference in gravity of sin. Sin is sin."

I can accept the gift of Christ's salvation at any time. It is itself a work. It does not burn itself into me like a brand. It is not a gift forced upon anyone for eternity, even if one chooses to reject it. It's a gift like any other. It can be thrown away, as shown in the parable of the Prodigal Son. But it can also be regained.

Jesus said to work while he is away. He was pleased with the men who labored to increase his talents while he was away. He wasn't talking about busywork. He was talking about doing good, and that those who did not do what they were supposed to were "wicked servants." It's not all about "accepting Jesus as Lord and Savior," and showing how good we are by our works. God works through us. He expects to use us as his instruments. He doesn't [i]need[/i] good works in order to save us. But that is not the same as saying that we do not need to do good works to be saved.

Remember the parable of the sower and the seed. Some of it sprouted up after receiving the word. Then it withered.

~Sternhauser

Edited November 29, 2009 by Sternhauser

[Nihil Obstat]

Dang, you quote Scripture like a Protestant. Nice work.

[Veridicus]

+1 to Sternhauser

[cmotherofpirl]

Homeschoolmom who I believe is a convert, posted this at one point, it is a suscinct summary of Catholic belief:
I'm already saved (Rom 8:24, Eph 2:5-8),
but I am also being saved (1 Cor 1:8, 2 Cor 2:15, Phi 2:12),
and
I have the hope that I'll will be saved (Rom 5:9-10, 1 Cor 3:12-15).
Like the apostle Paul I am working out my salvation in fear and trembling (Phi 2:12),
with hopeful confidence in the promises of Christ (Rom 5:2, 2 Tim 2:11-13).

[Archaeology cat]

Sternhauser, awesome.

[quote name='kafka' date='28 November 2009 - 08:02 PM' timestamp='1259438528' post='2010730']
Here is my summary on the Catholic teaching of salvation and merit. It is a summary of the teaching of the Council of Trent CHAPTER XVI.
On the fruit of Justification, that is, on the merit of good works, and on the nature of that merit.

Eternal life (or salvation) is the free and gratuitous gift of immediate vision of God. It is not within the ability or power of of a finite human creature to go beyond himself and see and be with the Infinite Creator forever, therefore the gift of eternal life (or salvation) must and can only be given and won back absolutely by God. And this was absolutely merited for all men by the salvific death of Jesus Christ who is God.

Yet man is free and so he must choose to accept this gift. So there is an aspect of man in freedom accepting justifying grace and working out his salvation in life on earth with the cooperation of God. Yet it is not enough for him to merely accept this gift, he must actualize it by doing good in life since he is plunged in a historical situation. And these good acts leading up to the final definitive act of death in union with Christ are his own unique definitive 'statements' of cooperating with grace judged by God as worthy of reward since they were accomplished in His grace. And it is these definitive acts in grace, which merit a unique reward from God within eternal life, yet they do not merit the absolute gift of eternal life which only could be merited and given by God.

So eternal life is the absolute gift of God's mercy. Within the absolute gift of eternal life merited and given by God is a unique and limited reward merited by men according to their personal good acts in grace during life on earth.
[/quote]
Thanks for that, Kafka.

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' date='29 November 2009 - 02:04 AM' timestamp='1259460244' post='2010841']
Homeschoolmom who I believe is a convert, posted this at one point, it is a suscinct summary of Catholic belief:
I'm already saved (Rom 8:24, Eph 2:5-8),
but I am also being saved (1 Cor 1:8, 2 Cor 2:15, Phi 2:12),
and
I have the hope that I'll will be saved (Rom 5:9-10, 1 Cor 3:12-15).
Like the apostle Paul I am working out my salvation in fear and trembling (Phi 2:12),
with hopeful confidence in the promises of Christ (Rom 5:2, 2 Tim 2:11-13).
[/quote]
I used that recently. And yeah, I think HSMom is a convert, too. On a side-note, my 5-year anniversary of entering the Church is coming soon!

Edited November 29, 2009 by Archaeology cat

[mortify]

Let me just stir the fire a bit by adding that salvific faith is dogmatic, i.e. it's not merely a trust in Christ's redemption on the cross, but a belief in everything God has revealed and promised.

[Aloysius]

Sadly, Tony Atonement was an alternate sn made to get around a suspension. As per phorum rules, his storm had to be stopped.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='Aloysius' date='29 November 2009 - 02:52 PM' timestamp='1259527951' post='2011293']
Sadly, Tony Atonement was an alternate sn made to get around a suspension. As per phorum rules, his storm had to be stopped.
[/quote]

[Winchester]

I will say he was acting more polite this time around.

[Vincent Vega]

[quote name='Tony Atonement' date='28 November 2009 - 03:03 AM' timestamp='1259395403' post='2010605']
Augustine's belief that God will not justify us without our consent is simply erroneous. Paul was on his way to persecute Christians and the farthest thing from his mind, was turning over his life to Christ. Need it be said that God over-ruled his journey and had other plans for him. Much more could be said, but Jesus said that "[i]No man is [u]able[/u] to come to me unless the Father who sent me, draw him." [/i](Jn 6:44).
[/quote]
It's like this: you can't answer the phone unless it's already ringing.
The phone ringing in and of itself, however, doesn't mean that you're talking on it. Just because God invites one to participate in His grace does not automatically mean that the invitee will accept.

[Vincent Vega]

[quote name='Winchester' date='01 December 2009 - 11:13 AM' timestamp='1259684025' post='2012510']
I will say he was acting more polite this time around.
[/quote]
His caps lock key must have broken from all of the pounding on and throwing against the wall of the keyboard.

[alleros]

It really is so very simple....

We love Jesus and we love others.. so we see eg the hungry and we reach out to them in the love of Jesus and the needy.

This all reminds me of an encounter here in a Border county of Ireland, when, as habited Catholic Nuns, we were selling craft work at a market - to raise funds to support our work in India with abandoned babies.

In summer, you see, the evangelicals, many of whom are very anti-Catholci, send teams over to ... convert.... the Catholics. Many are very aggressive.

On this occasion, two young men arrived at the table, and offered me a booklet entitled, "The Bible and the Catholic Church" .. which we politely refused, showing them the Gospels we offer, and explaining why we were there.

And the cry went up, "THAT WON'T GET YOU TO HEAVEN!"

As we replied; that ultimately is up to God, not thankfully to them.

And we trust in Him totally and fully.

The response to this also is to quote Jesus; Matthew 25, then to gently ask if that is what they think about all the time? Their own salvation, rather then obeying Jesus?

Because that is not our way.

Needs are there; in love and compassion we tend to them. Others first. As Jesus did.

Because also of course we know and trust Jesus and His promises; and that is sure in our hearts and allows and frees us to walk on.

Thankfully we know the Bible better than these young men do, so they vanished.

It is harder to be backed up against the potatoes in the supermarket by a zealous young Baptist eager to correct "wrong teaching"; and to him all that avails is to look him straight in the eye and say, "There IS only Jesus."

Because you can bat Bible verses back and forth all day and arouse even more aggression.

[add]

I thing I do know is that Good works will not go unpunished!

[alleros]

Amen!



[quote name='apparently' date='05 December 2009 - 08:28 AM' timestamp='1260019687' post='2014939']
I thing I do know is that Good works will not go unpunished! [img]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/public/style_emoticons/default/sadder.gif[/img]



[/quote]

[Guest Jon]

Well, if he's gone, then he will not be able to answer my pm ---WHAT is his avatar!???
Please, someone...