The Liturgy Of The Hours Is Missing Verses!

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='29 November 2009 - 02:08 PM' timestamp='1259525287' post='2011190']
Actually, it goes back to the Consilium, which revised the Roman Church's liturgy according to the notion that the liturgy needed to be updated in order to make sense to "modern man."
[/quote]
When you say modern man, am I supposed to read that as "stupid people"?

[Apotheoun]

Imagine what the Consilium would have done had it been in charge of "reforming" the Byzantine liturgy. I am sure that they would have been shocked by some of the prayers chanted on the Sunday of the Fathers . . . for example this text:

[size="3"]Without mother, before the morning star, * Thou wast born from the bosom of the Father before all ages, * yet we behold Arius glorifying Thee as a creature and not as God, * audaciously commingling Thee, the Creator, with His creation * and thus brashly heaping upon himself the punishment of eternal Fire, * but the council that was held in Nicea, * proclaimed Thee, O Lord, to be the Son of God, * enthroned together with the Father and the Spirit.[/size]

Or this one, which is a personal favorite of mine:

[size="3"]Despising the comprehension of the true light, * Arius was recompensed with a most extreme consequence for his sin, * for his bowels were rent asunder as if by a divine cleaver, * after which, like unto Judas, he gave up his body and soul * in a manner similar to Judas; * nevertheless the council that was held in Nicea, * proclaimed Thee, O Lord, to be the Son of God, * enthroned together with the Father and the Spirit.[/size]

Yes, the authors of the Byzantine liturgy love to call down anathemas upon the arch-heretics of Christian history.

Edited November 29, 2009 by Apotheoun

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='29 November 2009 - 01:09 PM' timestamp='1259525365' post='2011191']
When you say modern man, am I supposed to read that as "stupid people"?
[/quote]


Well the whole concept of "modern man" is rather foolish, which is why it should not act as some kind of ruling paradigm in establishing the prayers of the Church.

[Veridicus]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='29 November 2009 - 03:19 PM' timestamp='1259525984' post='2011206']
Imagine what the Consilium would have done had it been in charge of "reforming" the Byzantine liturgy. I am sure that they would have been shocked by some of the prayers chanted on the Sunday of the Fathers . . . for example this text:

[size="3"]Without mother, before the morning star, * Thou wast born from the bosom of the Father before all ages, * yet we behold Arius glorifying Thee as a creature and not as God, * audaciously commingling Thee, the Creator, with His creation * and thus brashly heaping upon himself the punishment of eternal Fire, * but the council that was held in Nicea, * proclaimed Thee, O Lord, to be the Son of God, * enthroned together with the Father and the Spirit.[/size]

Or this one, which is a personal favorite of mine:

[size="3"]Despising the comprehension of the true light, * Arius was recompensed with a most extreme consequence for his sin, * for his bowels were rent asunder as if by a divine cleaver, * after which, like unto Judas, he gave up his body and soul * in a manner similar to Judas; * nevertheless the council that was held in Nicea, * proclaimed Thee, O Lord, to be the Son of God, * enthroned together with the Father and the Spirit.[/size]

Yes, the authors of the Byzantine liturgy love to call down anathemas upon the arch-heretics of Christian history.
[/quote]

I wish I could live long enough to hear the chants of the future Church reflecting back upon the works and effects of people like Bugnini...

Edited November 29, 2009 by Veridicus

[Lil Red]

[quote name='Resurrexi' date='29 November 2009 - 09:41 AM' timestamp='1259509262' post='2011063']
This is one of the many reasons why I use the EF office.
[/quote]
+J.M.J.+
statements like these only divide. statements like these really tick me off. don't belittle those of us who legitimately use the English LOTH and have no desire to pray the office in Latin.

[JimR-OCDS]

[quote name='mortify' date='29 November 2009 - 04:06 PM' timestamp='1259525208' post='2011188']
Keep in mind Scripture dose not oppose itself, if there are *apparent* contradictions they are a product of man's mind, and not a problem in Scripture itself.



Again, keep in mind God is the primary originator of the Psalms and all parts of Scripture. Psalm 58 itself is referring to detractors and hypocrites.

[url="http://haydock1859.tripod.com/id782.html"]Psalm 58[/url]



This doesn't mean it doesn't possess legitimate flaws.
[/quote]

God didn't write Scripture, he inspired man to write it, and it needs to be read in the context from which man
wrote.

The Psalms are the songs of King David and speak of the relationship of the Israelites with God, and the Israelites
love of God.

However, in that time, there was also the inordinate disdain for the sinner and those not of the tribe of Israel. These are the
parts that the LOTH leaves out, because Jesus Christ showed us, that stoning the adulterer, and having hatred toward others is
not of God's will, but the evil acts of men. Psalm 58 expresses this mindset, and so, is not in accord with the gospel message of Jesus Christ, and is why its not a problem for me, that the Church left it out.


Jim

[Veridicus]

[quote name='Lil Red' date='29 November 2009 - 08:18 PM' timestamp='1259543903' post='2011555']
+J.M.J.+
statements like these only divide. statements like these really tick me off. don't belittle those of us who legitimately use the English LOTH and have no desire to pray the office in Latin.
[/quote]

Those statements may just reveal some divides that are extant rather than themselves dividing anything.

[sacredheartandbloodofjesus]

[quote name='JimR-OCDS' date='29 November 2009 - 08:23 PM' timestamp='1259544186' post='2011557']
God didn't write Scripture, he inspired man to write it, and it needs to be read in the context from which man
wrote.

The Psalms are the songs of King David and speak of the relationship of the Israelites with God, and the Israelites
love of God.

However, in that time, there was also the inordinate disdain for the sinner and those not of the tribe of Israel. These are the
parts that the LOTH leaves out, because Jesus Christ showed us, that stoning the adulterer, and having hatred toward others is
not of God's will, but the evil acts of men. Psalm 58 expresses this mindset, and so, is not in accord with the gospel message of Jesus Christ, and is why its not a problem for me, that the Church left it out.


Jim
[/quote]

No part of the psalms contradict Jesus and His message. Jesus Himself may have even prayed all the Pslams.

[Veridicus]

[quote name='sacredheartandbloodofjesus' date='29 November 2009 - 08:52 PM' timestamp='1259545975' post='2011575']
No part of the psalms contradict Jesus and His message. Jesus Himself may have even prayed all the Pslams.
[/quote]

Yeah I doubt if while reading the psalms in synagogue Jesus simply left out the ones that didn't fit into the new social program He was pushing.

[Theoketos]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='26 November 2009 - 12:32 AM' timestamp='1259213532' post='2009600']
But what about in the "ordinary form" of the Roman Rite, which is used by the vast majority of Roman Catholics? I think that that is the form of the liturgy that the original poster was referring to.
[/quote]

It is in the four volume version.

[Lil Red]

[quote name='Veridicus' date='29 November 2009 - 07:31 PM' timestamp='1259544687' post='2011563']
Those statements may just reveal some divides that are extant rather than themselves dividing anything.
[/quote]
+J.M.J.+
maybe it's the wine....but....

what did you just say? in plain ole english?

[Lil Red]

[quote name='Theoketos' date='29 November 2009 - 08:23 PM' timestamp='1259547816' post='2011592']
It is in the four volume version.
[/quote]
+J.M.J.+
the verses [u]are[/u] in the 4 volume?

[Veridicus]

[quote name='Lil Red' date='29 November 2009 - 10:58 PM' timestamp='1259553536' post='2011703']
+J.M.J.+
maybe it's the wine....but....

what did you just say? in plain ole english?
[/quote]

Haha...sorry. Let me rephrase. Perhaps his words were simply shining a light on philosophical/theological divisions which may already exist; rather than his words themselves being divisive in the true sense of creating division.

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='Lil Red' date='29 November 2009 - 08:18 PM' timestamp='1259543903' post='2011555']
+J.M.J.+
statements like these only divide. statements like these really tick me off. don't belittle those of us who legitimately use the English LOTH and have no desire to pray the office in Latin.
[/quote]

I didn't mean to belittle anyone.

Also, only those under obligation to recite the office (e.g. clerics) have to pray the 1962 Breviary in Latin. Everyone else is free to pray an English translation.

Edited November 30, 2009 by Resurrexi

[JimR-OCDS]

[quote name='sacredheartandbloodofjesus' date='29 November 2009 - 09:52 PM' timestamp='1259545975' post='2011575']
No part of the psalms contradict Jesus and His message. Jesus Himself may have even prayed all the Pslams.
[/quote]

From Psalm 58

[quote]
The wicked have been corrupt since birth; liars from the womb, they have gone astray. 5 [sup][url="http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/psalms/psalm58.htm#foot4"][color="#284b72"]4[/color][/url][/sup] Their poison is like the poison of a snake, like that of a serpent stopping its ears, 6 So as not to hear the voice of the charmer who casts such cunning spells. 7 O God, smash the teeth in their mouths; break the jaw-teeth of these lions, LORD! 8 Make them vanish like water flowing away; trodden down, let them wither like grass. 9 [sup][url="http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/psalms/psalm58.htm#foot5"][color="#284b72"]5[/color][/url][/sup] Let them dissolve like a snail that oozes away, like an untimely birth that never sees the sun. 10 Suddenly, like brambles or thistles, have the whirlwind snatch them away. 11 Then the just shall rejoice to see the vengeance and bathe their feet in the blood of the wicked. 12 Then it will be said: "Truly there is a reward for the just; there is a God who is judge on earth!"[/quote]

Jesus message was contrary to this. However, Jesus also revealed God the Father in a way King David, who wrote the Psalms, would not have imagined.

Jesus contradicted the mandates from Scripture that adulterers were to be stoned. That Jews were not to defile themselves by eating and drinking with sinners.

Again, the context from which they were written is important, and the difference of how WE, as Christians pray with the Psalms, is different than the that of the ancient Hebrews, because of what Jesus revealed to us a God of mercy.

If you're going to follow the Old Testament literally, without the revelation of the Gospel message, than you'll have to include the dietary laws as well as the legalistic laws of the OT.

I prefer to follow the Gospel and so does the Catholic Church, who authorized the LOTH.


Jim