Under The Islamic Veil: Faces Disfigured By Acid

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Hassan' date='25 November 2009 - 07:34 PM' timestamp='1259202890' post='2009507']
I don't see how this point is so elusive. I'm not defending Islam. Permitting a man to beat his wife is appauling. I'm simply not willing to turn a bling eye to the savagery contained in your sacred text, dictated by your God.
[/quote]
It is called bait and switch. Rather than simply accept the fact that Islam permits, and even can be said to encourage, a man to beat his wife, while Judaism rejects this idea, you bring up a different topic - no doubt one you feel more comfortable talking about. Neither Judaism nor Christianity permit a man to beat his wife; in fact, both the Halakhic sources and the New Testament say that a man should care for his wife as he does his own body.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Hassan' date='25 November 2009 - 07:34 PM' timestamp='1259202890' post='2009507']
Erin is waiting for your response in the Imam thread btw.
[/quote]
Who is Erin? I will respond to that thread when I have the time. But let us stick to the topic that Sternhouser brought up, i.e., WIFE BEATING. Islam approves of it, while Judaism (and note I am not Jewish so I have no vested interest in defending that religion) rejects that practice as barbaric.

Edited November 26, 2009 by Apotheoun

[Hassan]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='25 November 2009 - 09:37 PM' timestamp='1259203075' post='2009509']
It is called bait and switch. Rather than simply accept the fact that Islam permits, and even can be said to encourage, a man to beat his wife, while Judaism rejects this idea, you bring up a different topic - no doubt one you feel more comfortable talking about. Neither Judaism nor Christianity permit a man to beat his wife; in fact, both the Halakhic sources and the New Testament say that a man should care for his wife as he does his own body.
[/quote]


That does not apply to me. I do now deny that the Qur'an permits a man to hit his wife under certain circumstances. Not only do I acknowledge this, but in the very post you just quoted I described this as "appalling".

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Hassan' date='25 November 2009 - 07:43 PM' timestamp='1259203387' post='2009513']
That does not apply to me. I do now deny that the Qur'an permits a man to hit his wife under certain circumstances. Not only do I acknowledge this, but in the very post you just quoted I described this as "appalling".
[/quote]
I know you say things like wife beating is "appalling" and yet the general tone of every one of your posts is defensive. You say it is appalling, but then you take a completely unrelated topic, i.e., the penalty to be applied for the crime of adultery, and try to make a comparison which in some sense - whether you know it or not - mitigates your comment about wife beating being "appalled." You speak out of both sides of your mouth, waffling to and fro and never really making much sense.

Edited November 26, 2009 by Apotheoun

[Hassan]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='25 November 2009 - 09:40 PM' timestamp='1259203246' post='2009511']
Who is Erin? I will respond to that thread when I have the time. But let us stick to the topic that Sternhouser brought up, i.e., WIFE BEATING. Islam approves of it, while Judaism (and note I am not Jewish so I have no vested interest in defending that religion) rejects that practice as barbaric.
[/quote]


You do have an interest in it because the savagery contained in the supposedly God given injunctions of the Torah delivered by your prophet are on the net level no better than the supposedly God given injunctions delivered by Muhammad, but you all wish to pretend this is not so.

How do you feel about stoning as a punishment for adultery? I find it barbaric and morally disgusting (dictated by Muhammadf or Moses, it makes no difference). How about you?

[Hassan]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='25 November 2009 - 09:45 PM' timestamp='1259203541' post='2009514']
I know you say things like wife beating is "appalling" and yet the general tone of every one of your posts is defensive. You say it is appalling, but then you take a completely unrelated topic, i.e., the penalty to be applied for the crime of adultery, and try to make a comparison which in some sense - [size="7"]whether you know it or not - mitigates your comment about wife beating being "appalled."[/size] You speak out of both sides of your mouth, waffling to and fro and never really making much sense.
[/quote]


How?

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Hassan' date='25 November 2009 - 07:47 PM' timestamp='1259203677' post='2009516']
You do have an interest in it because the savagery contained in the supposedly God given injunctions of the Torah delivered by your prophet are on the net level no better than the supposedly God given injunctions delivered by Muhammad, but you all wish to pretend this is not so.[/quote]
Christians have never held the penalties put forward in the Torah for various crimes as perennially binding, but again that is another topic, and we are talking about how Islam permits wife abuse, which spills over into the types of crimes that have been committed against the women who are the focus of this thread.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Hassan' date='25 November 2009 - 07:49 PM' timestamp='1259203785' post='2009519']
How?
[/quote]
Because you always try to change the topic of discussion so that you can say that Islam is no worse than Judaism, or whatever other religion serves your purpose at that moment. As hard as it is to believe, you apparently are completely blind to your constant attempts at defending Islam.

[Apotheoun]

I must admit that based on your posts I am not convinced that you are all that appalled by wife beating. Since you want to avoid the topic and move to a topic where you think that Islam is no worse than Judaism (or even Christianity . . . from your strange perspective). Did Jesus permit wife abuse? What did Jesus do when the woman caught committing adultery was brought before Him? What did Mohammad say to do in those cases? Maybe we should do a detailed comparison of how Jesus said a man should treat his wife, and what Mohammad said was "okay."

Edited November 26, 2009 by Apotheoun

[Sternhauser]

Yes. WWMD?

~Sternhauser

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Sternhauser' date='25 November 2009 - 07:59 PM' timestamp='1259204352' post='2009526']
Yes. WWMD?

~Sternhauser
[/quote]
I can tell you right now, based upon what I read in the various Hadith collections, no woman (and probably very few men) here at Phatmass would want to have anything to do with Mohammad and what he saw as moral.

Edited November 26, 2009 by Apotheoun

[Apotheoun]

I am sure that Hassan will try to say it is all the same, that Jesus' teaching was no better than that of Mohammad, but all that will prove is that Hassan is blind and deaf.

Edited November 26, 2009 by Apotheoun

[Apotheoun]

What is a martyr in Christianity? An innocent person who suffers at the hands of those who hate Christ.

What is a martyr in Islam? It can be either an innocent person who suffers at the hands of others, or - and more commonly - it is one who fights and dies in jihad, killing as many people as he can prior to his death.

[Hassan]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='25 November 2009 - 09:53 PM' timestamp='1259204003' post='2009521']
Because you always try to change the topic of discussion so that you can say that Islam is no worse than Judaism, or whatever other religion serves your purpose at that moment. As hard as it is to believe, you apparently are completely blind to your constant attempts at defending Islam.
[/quote]


It's not changing the topic. Wifebeating is one thread of the larger issue of the misogynistic components of these religions.

What would you like to talk about regarding wife beating in the Islamic tradition that you feel I am avoiding? The Qur'an allows a husband to beat hit his wife after certain alternative methods of resolving her "disobedience" have been resolved. The allowance of a man to resort to violence to resolve a marital dispute is wrong. The larger assumptions which feed into this allowance, the logical antecedents to this conclusion-like that the man holds a position of superiority over his wife in the marital union- are also wrong. The optimal thing would be for people to neither need nor want Islam as a world view. But as that is not realistic people need to work with Islamic cultures and intellectuals to mold the tradition to phase out all vestiges of this tradition.

I could go on.

However when you all want to expand from this and use this to demonstrate the moral superiority of your God and prophets I must object and point out the misogynistic and regressive elements of your faith.

Edited November 26, 2009 by Hassan

[Apotheoun]

What was it that Sirhindi said about the Jews?