Under The Islamic Veil: Faces Disfigured By Acid

[Sternhauser]

[quote name='Lilllabettt' date='25 November 2009 - 11:02 AM' timestamp='1259161335' post='2009194']
God refers to Himself in the plural in Genesis 1:26 and 3:22. I have always heard the explanation that this is a veiled reference to the Holy Trinity. Not saying this is the case with Islam, but it is not necessarily the devil either. I think maybe it is an example of God reaching out, planting a seed in those who read the Koran, so that eventually He can bring them to Himself.
[/quote]

God in Genesis referring to Himself in the third person is a partial revelation, in due time, of the reality Holy Trinity.

Are you proposing that God himself directly inspired that part of the Koran? Or that God merely allowed Mahomet to put that in his demonic work, and may use it to accomplish good?

I have no doubt of the latter, but otherwise, I don't know what you are trying to prove by saying "God is reaching out" in this context.

~Sternhauser

Edited November 25, 2009 by Sternhauser

[Sternhauser]

[font="Arial"][size="1"][font="Verdana"][size="2"][quote]"I have no idea, but my guess is most of the women in these photographs remain devout Muslims. It is most likley deeply offensive to them to have their personal suffering be exploited by us/ the Times, as a tool for discrediting their faith."[/quote][/size][/font][b]

[/b][font="Verdana"][size="2"][font="Arial"]I have an idea that you're right. And it is also right that physically abused women, whose photographs I will not post, but who wipe their bloody noses, hide their defense marks on their forearms with sleeves, and cover up their black eyes with makeup, and cover the choke marks with turtlenecks, also remain "devoted" to their violent, worthless husbands, whose natures, like the nature of Islam, will not change.

These abused may see it as deeply offensive that anyone should question the impeccability of the natures of their husbands. It's called Stockholm syndrome and naïvete. Neither their continued "submission" to their husbands on such matters, or their continued submission to Mahometanism, respectively, is praiseworthy.

And I'm sure that both types of people are real sweethearts when they're not following the dictates of Jack Daniels or the Koran. The difference is? One doesn't need to be an abusive drunkard to be a good husband. One needs to follow the Koran to be a good Mahometan.

The similarities? [/font][/size][/font][/size][/font]

[color="#ff0000"][font="Arial"][color="#000000"]Heed the wisdom of the Koran, [4:34]: "The men are made responsible for the women, and Allah has endowed them with certain qualities, and made them the bread earners. The righteous women will cheerfully accept this arrangement, since it is Allah's commandment, and honor their husbands during their absence. If you experience rebellion from the women, you shall first talk to them, then desert them in bed, [b]then you may beat them.[/b] If they obey you, you are not permitted to [b]transgress[/b] against them. Allah is Most High, Supreme."[/color][/font]
[/color]

[font="Arial"][size="1"][font="Verdana"][size="2"] [font="Arial"] ~Sternhauser[/font][/size][/font][b] [/b][/size][/font]

Edited November 25, 2009 by Sternhauser

[Didacus]

SPAM!!!

If you're going to debatre Islam do so in another thread!

Regardless of religion, these victims deserve sympathy and respect, and better thnigs than being the mere subject of debate. A little compasion please...

Edited November 25, 2009 by Didacus

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='OraProMe' date='25 November 2009 - 02:53 AM' timestamp='1259135631' post='2009152']
My point is that it's wrong for Erin to state that we should pray for all those "suffering under Islam" as if these acts are an accurate representation of the beliefs on one billion people. It's wrong for her to engage in this fear-mongering that she's become so fond of. Christian and Jewish sacred texts, regardless of how long it took to compile them, are just as susceptible to being twisted and interpreted to support a less than Christian agenda.
[/quote]

Stop using my name. I have never introduced myself to you, and I have never been friendly with you. Therefore I have no clue why you think you have the right to address me like that, all over the thread. To continue, people do suffer under Islam. I was not making a generalization. Women get dragged into the street and stoned by their husbands for "disrespecting" them. Little girls get wed to grown men. Muslims have strapped bombs to themselves and blown themselves up in the middle of crowded streets. Adolescent girls and women get killed because they have "dishonored" their family in some way, such as dating a non-Muslim. I believe all of those people have suffered under Islam, no? Those people have quoted the Qur'an, i.e. used it in their defense, to justify their barbaric behavior. They did not twist the words of the Qur'an, they have directly quoted it. Furthermore, I said "as well as for everyone who suffers under Islam and from Islam" not "every single Muslim and non-Muslim suffers from Islam." I am absolutely positive that a Church Scholar can come in here and fully explain why the Old Testament and the Qur'an cannot be compared. For one thing, in the Old Testament, it was God who decided punishments and gave them. In the Qur'an, the people are instructed through the Prophet who says this is what Allah expects and wants. That is all I will say on that, because this thread is NOT about the Old Testmanet versus the Qur'an.

Note the "Allah willing" remark in this video of hatred against the Jewish people:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hM0ZD6XfTfg

Edited November 25, 2009 by HisChildForever

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='Lilllabettt' date='25 November 2009 - 09:01 AM' timestamp='1259157715' post='2009178']
I have no idea, but my guess is most of the women in these photographs remain devout Muslims. It is most likley deeply offensive to them to have their personal suffering be exploited by us/ the Times, as a tool for discrediting their faith. It is frankly nauseating to see people using women this way. The media is violating them a second time. And we are participating it.
[/quote]

So instead of considering that the women wanted to be photographed to show the world the horrors they suffered (and why they suffered them), it is instead considered that they are victims of an American newspaper.

[Varg]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' date='24 November 2009 - 03:52 PM' timestamp='1259095933' post='2008664']
Ever heard of a atheist putting a bullet in someone's face because Stalin (atheist) said so?
[/quote]
Ever heard of Countess Bathory (Christian) killing over 600 people (directly)?

Edited November 25, 2009 by Varg

[HisChildForever]

I also never understood why non-Muslims defend Islam: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a2lVCXjupNU&feature=related

[Lilllabettt]

[quote name='HisChildForever' date='25 November 2009 - 12:51 PM' timestamp='1259167919' post='2009259']
So instead of considering that the women wanted to be photographed to show the world the horrors they suffered (and why they suffered them), it is instead considered that they are victims of an American newspaper.
[/quote]


Sure, they wanted to be photographed to show the world their suffering. I guarantee you they did NOT submit to these photographs so that you, a woman thousands of miles away in space and experience, could then use them to attack their religion. I bet they think the real reason they are suffering is the phenomenon of male violence against women ... which is something that knows no borders of class, culture, or religion. I bet they expected that women in the West would see their own reflection in their faces, and understand that here is another example of the world wide discrimination against women ...

I can only imagine the betrayal these women might feel if they ever discovered how their photographs are being used. They turned to the media for help, and what do they get? Instead of understanding, that they are suffering because they are women, they receive the accusation that they are suffering because they are Muslim. Of course, that is not an uncommon thing. I know of some groups who will never give interviews to the media, because they believe no matter what, their words will be distorted. It is still a shocking, NAUSEATING thing to see the media stoop so low to exploit the most vulnerable memebers of a society ...

People who want to fight a war against Islam .. fine do it. I think the reason people think this way is they do not know any Muslim women personally; or they have never stepped foot inside a mosque. Maybe if everyone did these things, we would understand the experience of being both a woman and a devout Muslim better ... But if we insist on fighting a war against Islam, then lets leave the women out of it. Leave them to people who want to help them, not use their suffering in a proxy war.

How ironic. How twisted, sick and ironic that this peice, which is decrying a human rights violation against women, is violating their rights all over again. There is no respect.

Their men gave them no respect because they are women. We give them no respect because they are Muslim.

Shame on us!

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Lilllabettt' date='25 November 2009 - 12:13 PM' timestamp='1259176439' post='2009316']
. . .

How ironic. How twisted, sick and ironic that this peice, which is decrying a human rights violation against women, is violating their rights all over again. There is no respect.

Their men gave them no respect because they are women. We give them no respect because they are Muslim.[/quote]
None of us know why these women chose to pose for these pictures, but pose for them they did. For all we know they may have wanted to show the plight of women in Islamic controlled societies, and meant this as a warning to everyone about what the practice of the Islamic religion does, not only to women, but to men, who become truly gruesome in their violence against women.

By the way, I do know several Muslims personally, having met them while I was completing my second bachelors degree, which had a secondary focus on the development of Islamic theology during the first 600 years of the Muslim era. Nevertheless, I have no qualms in saying that Islam is a false religion, and that it has kept millions of people in the dark about the true nature and dignity of the human person, which is fully realized only in Christ.

Finally, since I do not identify these women with the Islamic religion itself, which as an ideology is - as a Byzantine Emperor once said - "bad and inhuman," it is not a form of disrespect to these women personally to speak out against that vile cult.

Edited November 25, 2009 by Apotheoun

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='25 November 2009 - 03:34 PM' timestamp='1259181289' post='2009376']
None of us know why these women chose to pose for these pictures, but pose for them they did. For all we know they may have wanted to show the plight of women in Islamic controlled societies, and meant this as a warning to everyone about what the practice of the Islamic religion does, not only to women, but to men, who become truly gruesome in their violence against women.

By the way, I do know several Muslims personally, having met them while I was completing my second bachelors degree, which had a secondary focus on the development of Islamic theology during the first 600 years of the Muslim era. Nevertheless, I have no qualms in saying that Islam is a false religion, and that it has kept millions of people in the dark about the true nature and dignity of the human person, which is fully realized only in Christ.

Finally, since I do not identify these women with the Islamic religion itself, which as an ideology is - as a Byzantine Emperor once said - "bad and inhuman," it is not a form of disrespect to these women personally to speak out against that vile cult.
[/quote]

It is very hard for some people to reconcile the fact that Islam promotes violence. Well said.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Lilllabettt' date='25 November 2009 - 07:52 AM' timestamp='1259160771' post='2009190']
What is the goal of calling Islam evil? Who are we trying to save? Have we been succesful using that tactic?
[/quote]
Perhaps he is simply trying to point out that Islam is a form of religious deception that has kept millions upon millions of people in the dark. Christ is the true light that enlightens men, not Mohammad or his deceptive ideology.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='HisChildForever' date='25 November 2009 - 01:41 PM' timestamp='1259181666' post='2009380']
It is very hard for some people to reconcile the fact that Islam promotes violence. Well said.
[/quote]
I know. I had a happy go lucky view of Islam until I read the Quran and the various collections of Hadith.

[HisChildForever]

An example of Islamic violence against women (because it seems this thread topic is not enough):

[quote] BERLIN, Sep 29 (IPS) - Amnesty International has issued an urgent appeal calling on its members to write letters to the Republic of Iran asking them not to stone seven women.

Nearly all of the women have been sentenced to die by stoning for adultery. Officially Iran had placed a moratorium on the cruel and painful practise in 2002, but Amnesty claims sentencing continues. The group has received credible reports that two people were stoned to death in May.

The United Nations Human Rights Committee has ruled that treating adultery and fornication as criminal offences does not comply with international human rights standards.

"The sentence of execution by stoning for adultery breaches Iran's commitment under article 6(2) of the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights that death sentences will be imposed ‘only for the most serious crimes'," Amnesty wrote in its appeal.

[b][u]Under Shari'a law, a prisoner is buried up to her breast, her hands restrained. Rules also specify the size of the stones which can be thrown so that death is painful and not imminent. Both men and women can be sentenced to die by stoning. In practise, however, an overwhelming number of women receive that penalty.[/b][/u]

"It's high time this brutal practise ends. Not only are people deprived of their right to life by the state but they are tortured in the process," Nicole Choueiry, Amnesty's Middle East press officer, told IPS.

"Iran should review its legislation as a matter of urgency to bring it into line with international human rights standards," she added. [/quote]

Full article here: http://ipsnews.net/news.asp?idnews=34939

Scroll down and you will find this snippet:

[quote]Kobra Najjar, 44, is at imminent risk of execution, Amnesty said. She claims to have been forced into prostitution by her husband, a heroin addict who was violent towards her.

"In 1995, after a severe beating by her husband, she told one of her regular customers that she wanted to kill her husband. The customer allegedly murdered her husband after Kobra Najjar took him to an arranged meeting place. The customer was sentenced to death, but he was pardoned by the victim's family, to whom he paid blood money," Amnesty added.

Soghra Mola'i was sentenced to 15 years' imprisonment for being an accomplice to the January 2004 murder of her husband Abdollah and to execution by stoning for adultery. She claims her lover killed her husband. Her boyfriend has been sentenced to hang for the homicide, after receiving 100 lashes for "illicit relations." [/quote]

[Hassan]

[quote name='HisChildForever' date='24 November 2009 - 08:44 PM' timestamp='1259113457' post='2008910']
Comparing Islam to ultra Orthodox Jews is like comparing Islam to the SSPX.
[/quote]


No, it's a bad comparison because one is an entire set of diverse ideologies while the other is a specific sect within a broad ideology.

[Hassan]

[quote name='Lilllabettt' date='25 November 2009 - 09:01 AM' timestamp='1259157715' post='2009178']
Wowwww look at all the drama.

Okay, first off. No I wasn't trying to gloss over the crime these women have suffered. I'm just sick of our dumb society that looks at the hardships a body endures ... scars, wrinkles, stooped back, whatever ... and sees something negative. The month I was in the hospital, the lady next to me was that woman who had her face torn off by the chimp. They had to put a cop outside her door to keep people from going in there and gawking at her. I have my physical mutilations too, but I'm proud of them ...

Second off
[u][size="5"][b]I have no idea, but my guess is most of the women in these photographs remain devout Muslims. It is most likley deeply offensive to them to have their personal suffering be exploited by us/ the Times, as a tool for discrediting their faith. It is frankly nauseating to see people using women this way. The media is violating them a second time. And we are participating it.

We have to ask ourselves what our goal is. Are we interested in scoring religious points? Or are we interested in protecting women and advancing the cause of women's dignity across cultures and civilizations? What is more likely to achieve the latter goal ... using these crimes to attack Islam, or showing Muslims that these attacks are antithetical to their treasured religious beliefs? Women should not be divided by religion when it comes to standing up for their rights. How stupid that we divide ourselves when we should be united and speak with one voice![/b][font="Courier New"][/font][/size][/u]

The fact is that Islam is not inherently evil. It is not inherently violent against women. Islam is not inherently ANYTHING. It was created by man, and its meaning is strictly limited to whatever defintion man gives it. But instead of aiding the voices in Islam who want to emphasize a definition of Islam that protects women, we attack Islam itself, forcing moderates further and further into extremism.

Incidentally, this is EXACTLY what happeend to the Salafists. They were moderates, supporting an Islamic ideal which borrowed copiously from Western intellectual and political traditions. Aggressive Westernization forced them further and further from the middle, until they were denouncning women in the pages of al-Manar.
[/quote]


Perfectly said. Every word of it.

I was actually just thinking that I hadn't seen much of you around here when I was in DC. Good to see you're out of the hospital and posting again.