Under The Islamic Veil: Faces Disfigured By Acid

[Maggyie]

It's also worth noting that sexual norms have changed greatly and still greatly differ from place to place. Mary was probably around 12 when she was betrothed to St. Joseph, which was considered typical, and they would have been expected to have a sexual relationship, although of course we know they did not.

[Maggyie]

[quote name='Saint Therese' date='28 November 2009 - 06:07 AM' timestamp='1259402843' post='2010627']
Hassan it sounds like you've been successfully propogandized.
[/quote]

He may have been, but so have other people I think, although in the opposite direction. Luckily as Catholics we do have access to people who have taken the time to study, learn, and reflect. If anyone reading this thread would like to learn what the CHURCH believes about Islam, you can take a gander at the resources provided by our bishops [url="http://www.usccb.org/seia/islam_index.shtml"]here[/url]. I especially reccomend the PDF called "What Catholics Should Know about Islam." It is not "kumbaya" but it is also a balanced and fair appraisal.

Edited November 28, 2009 by Maggie

[Maggyie]

[quote name='jumpfrog' date='27 November 2009 - 10:37 PM' timestamp='1259375875' post='2010500']
I am surprised that no one responded to JiYoung's observation that these crimes were mostly the result of romantic disappointment or family feuds. Her observations are the most astute on this entire thread.

I can hardly imagine that anything in the Koran or any other Islamic religious literature justifies throwing acid into the face of someone who turned you down for marriage. Let's be reasonable...I think that the original article may indeed have the effect of creating an impression that Islam justifies this kind of barbaric action. Now, I am not saying that Islam doesn't condone other barbaric actions, but not this one.

Furthermore, the article could have mentioned that this is not so much a religiously driven horror, but a cultural and even geographical one. For example, there are many women and children in Cambodia who are scarred in this way. Cambodia is a Buddhist country. These crimes are done for many of the same reasons as in Muslim countries: rejected men seeking vengeance, or anger towards a family, which is vented on the most vulnerable people.

However, in Southeast Asian countries it is also very common for WOMEN to attack other women in this way, in an act of jealously or anger for very trivial things. It is very easy and cheap to get battery acid, so it is a common weapon. Sometimes people are attacked in crowded places like markets, and many times bystanders are unintentionally harmed or killed as well as the intended victim. Many simply do not survive these attacks, which instantly melt and fuse skin, tissues and bone. The women in the pictures, the women you may see on other sites that are scarred, they are the minority of victims.

I think people should not be quick to make a connection between Islam and acid burning. Acid attacks are horrific crimes that are very common, as JiYoung pointed out, in extremely patriarchal societies (which describes much of developing Asia).
[/quote]

This is a good point and I am sorry for not noticing it earlier. Even when religion is used as the justification for an attack, the true roots of the violence are in a sick culture that devalues women.

[Maggyie]

[quote name='HisChildForever' date='28 November 2009 - 02:51 AM' timestamp='1259391077' post='2010563']
Muhammad is foundational to Islam. Reveal him to be immoral, and what does that say about Islam?
[/quote]

This reminds me of the way we Catholics sometimes focus on the anti-Semitism of Luther, or how some Protestants like to bring up the immoralities of the Borgia popes. In Lutheranism and in Islam, the sanctity of the founder, while believed in, is not foundational to the veracity of the religious system. Similarly, even though we consider popes infallible under certain circumstances, their personal holiness is not an issue.

Edited November 28, 2009 by Maggie

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='Maggie' date='28 November 2009 - 09:53 AM' timestamp='1259419985' post='2010646']
It's also worth noting that sexual norms have changed greatly and still greatly differ from place to place. Mary was probably around 12 when she was betrothed to St. Joseph, which was considered typical, and they would have been expected to have a sexual relationship, although of course we know they did not.
[/quote]

[i]Tu quoque[/i] fallacy.

[quote name='Maggie' date='28 November 2009 - 10:16 AM' timestamp='1259421382' post='2010659']
This reminds me of the way we Catholics sometimes focus on the anti-Semitism of Luther, or how some Protestants like to bring up the immoralities of the Borgia popes. In Lutheranism and in Islam, the sanctity of the founder, while believed in, is not foundational to the veracity of the religious system. Similarly, even though we consider popes infallible under certain circumstances, their personal holiness is not an issue.
[/quote]

Another [i]tu quoque[/i] fallacy.

Catholicism was not founded by popes but by Jesus Christ. Lutheranism was founded by Luther, but again, Catholicism (which he basically tweaked to his own liking) was founded by Jesus Christ. Therefore, the only way to discredit Christianity is if Jesus Christ Himself, the founder and leader, was immoral. We know this is not the case.

Islam was founded by Muhammad. Muhammad, the founder and leader, was a pedophile and a mongering warlord. He was immoral. And you think this does not effect the religion at all?

[Maggyie]

[quote name='HisChildForever' date='28 November 2009 - 11:32 AM' timestamp='1259422321' post='2010665']
[i]Tu quoque[/i] fallacy.



Another [i]tu quoque[/i] fallacy.

Catholicism was not founded by popes but by Jesus Christ. Lutheranism was founded by Luther, but again, Catholicism (which he basically tweaked to his own liking) was founded by Jesus Christ. Therefore, the only way to discredit Christianity is if Jesus Christ Himself, the founder and leader, was immoral. We know this is not the case.

Islam was founded by Muhammad. Muhammad, the founder and leader, was a pedophile and a mongering warlord. He was immoral. And you think this does not effect the religion at all?
[/quote]

I am not sure you fully understand what the tu quoque fallacy is. Do you mean St. Joseph and Mary's parents behaved immorally in betrothing her? My point is that our view of sexual maturity is in some respects culturally conditioned. The idea of 18 years old being the age of adulthood is very new. Only a few hundred years ago, most people did not live long beyond 18. St. Elizabeth of Hungary, whose feast we just celebrated, was betrothed at age four, was sent to live with her spouse and his family at that time, and consummated her marriage (with her adult husband) at fourteen. Everybody involved in that was Christian. I am not saying it is OK for people to sleep with children, I am simply pointing out that this is not something Muhammad invented and possibly would not be considered odd or dangerous in his culture.

Obviously Muhammad was a sinful man, including not only his sexual proclivities but his unacceptable habit of spreading his religion via force. What I am trying to show you is that to Muslims, Muhammad occupies roughly the same place as Luther or the Pope. Very roughly, but do you get what I mean? The Koran specifically teaches that Muhammad was a sinner who had to repent. While some less educated Muslims may cherish the pious belief that he was sinless, the text says that he was not, in black and white. For the serious theologians among them, the immorality of their founder is not an issue and is in some ways taken for granted, since he needed to beg forgiveness from Allah.

Edited November 28, 2009 by Maggie

[Maggyie]

[quote]So anyway, about my question. How about it Erin? Have you ever sat down and read the Qur'an from front to end, learnt the various approaches to interpretation, the various paradigms for formulating fiqh (the thing you continually confuse with Shaira')? Or is it all confined to youtube propaganda videos and blogs?[/quote]


[quote]Have you ever actually watched the videos and read the articles? Yes, articles. I post blogs and articles. Perhaps you can explain to me how the Sheik in the video Knight posted is propaganda?

One thing I have noticed about you, William, is that you attack the character of your opponent as opposed to focusing on the actual content of their posts. This is a dishonest and not appreciated.[/quote]

I noticed that you did not directly reply to his question about your level of investigation into the Islamic faith tradition. While obviously you have made an effort, I think you could bolster your case if you tried a more scholarly approach. Try reading the Koran, front to end, as Hassan suggests - you don't need to read it with an open mind, but just read it so you can get a feel for their text, beyond just cut and paste verses from a random website. If you go to the [url="http://www.usccb.org/seia/islam_index.shtml#5"]link[/url] I posted earlier, you can look at some good official Catholic resources, and I am sure if you PM Lilllabettt she can provide the titles of some helpful books and articles, or maybe she can post that here so we can all benefit.

Edited November 28, 2009 by Maggie

[Hassan]

[quote name='Saint Therese' date='28 November 2009 - 05:07 AM' timestamp='1259402843' post='2010627']
Hassan it sounds like you've been successfully propogandized.
[/quote]

I'm not sure why people feel this way. My judgments of Muhammad are pretty nominal. I see him as a historical figure about like any other. I judge him by the context in which he lived and his attempts to strive beyond the limitations of his age. Such a judgment is mixed. He was in many ways a progressive and profound moral leader who accomplished great feats in helping his people establish one of the great civilizations of the ages. On the other hand he was also susceptible to great moral shortcomings, profound failures to strive past the limitations of his age.

I have about the same opinion of Peter I of Russia.

Regarding Islam, my position is pretty modest. It'd be preferable is people did not make it their worldview, but it is a man made construction and therefore inherently flexible and amendable. The legal theory is abominable but perhaps that can changed over time, Tariq Ramadan has made progress in this respect. Holding that Islam is not inherently worse than any other religion or ideology isn't a really positive endorsement, unless that in compared to the view that Islam is a satanic order.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Hassan' date='28 November 2009 - 10:57 AM' timestamp='1259431044' post='2010697']
I'm not sure why people feel this way. My judgments of Muhammad are pretty nominal. I see him as a historical figure about like any other. I judge him by the context in which he lived and his attempts to strive beyond the limitations of his age. Such a judgment is mixed. He was in many ways a progressive and profound moral leader who accomplished great feats in helping his people establish one of the great civilizations of the ages. On the other hand he was also susceptible to great moral shortcomings, profound failures to strive past the limitations of his age.

I have about the same opinion of Peter I of Russia.

Regarding Islam, my position is pretty modest. It'd be preferable is people did not make it their worldview, but it is a man made construction and therefore inherently flexible and amendable. The legal theory is abominable but perhaps that can changed over time, Tariq Ramadan has made progress in this respect. Holding that Islam is not inherently worse than any other religion or ideology isn't a really positive endorsement, unless that in compared to the view that Islam is a satanic order.
[/quote]
Yes, Mohammad was ahead of his time, as for example when he married Aisha, who was six years old at the time, but then waited to consummate the marriage until she was nine.

Or when he said, or rather Allah said through him that: "When your Lord revealed to the angels: I am with you, therefore make firm those who believe. I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them."

And: "Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Messenger have prohibited, nor follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book, until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection."

Very enlightened indeed. Any objective comparison between the peaceful teaching of Christ and that of Mohammad will reveal the violent nature of the Islamic religion. When a Christian harms an innocent person he is acting against the teaching of Christ, while the opposite is true for a Muslim, because he is encouraged to be violent by Mohammad in order to "cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve."

[Apotheoun]

[quote][b][url="http://www.persecution.org/suffering/newssummpopup.php?newscode=10387"]Somali Islamists Behead Christian Leader's Young Sons[/url][/b]
July 2, 2009, 01:26:48 PM

[i]Somalia: Islamists Behead Two Sons of Christian Leader
Father refuses to give al Shabaab extremists information about house church pastor.[/i]

07/02/2009 Somalia (Compass Direct News) - Islamic extremists have beheaded two young boys in Somalia because their Christian father refused to divulge information about a church leader, and the killers are searching Kenya’s refugee camps to do the same to the boys’ father.

Before taking his Somali family to a Kenyan refugee camp in April, 55-year-old Musa Mohammed Yusuf himself was the leader of an underground church in Yonday village, 30 kilometers (19 miles) from Kismayo in Somalia. He had received instruction in the Christian faith from Salat Mberwa.

Militants from the Islamic extremist group al Shabaab entered Yonday village on Feb. 20, went to Yusuf’s house and interrogated him on his relationship with Mberwa, leader of a fellowship of 66 Somali Christians who meet at his home at an undisclosed city. Yusuf told them he knew nothing of Mberwa and had no connection with him. The Islamic extremists left but said they would return the next day.

“Immediately when they left, I decided to flee my house for Kismayo, for I knew for sure they were determined to come back,” Yusuf said.

At noon the next day, as his wife was making lunch for their children in Yonday, the al Shabaab militants showed up. Batula Ali Arbow, Yusuf’s wife, recalled that their youngest son, Innocent, told the group that their father had left the house the previous day.

The Islamic extremists ordered her to stop what she was doing and took hold of three of her sons – 11-year-old Abdi Rahaman Musa Yusuf, 12-year-old Hussein Musa Yusuf and Abdulahi Musa Yusuf, 7. Some neighbors came and pleaded with the militants not to harm the three boys. Their pleas landed on deaf ears.[/quote]

The men who committed these murders were simply following the teaching of Mohammad on what to do to non-believers and apostates.