Under The Islamic Veil: Faces Disfigured By Acid

[Didacus]

Pride is the most lethal of all mortal sins.




Back to you Bob...

[Maggyie]

[quote name='HisChildForever' date='27 November 2009 - 03:01 AM' timestamp='1259305275' post='2010167']
Thanks. I would like to point out that, in the surrounding verses, individuals who commit adultery and bestiality will also be put to death. Clearly these are very extreme sentences; however, these sentences are meant to be a deterrent more than anything else, because "do not conform, therefore, to the customs of the nations whom I am driving out of your way, because all these things that they have done have filled me with disgust for them" (Leviticus 20:23). God wanted to steer the Israelites as far away as possible from the sinful customs of neighboring nations.

The best and the quickest way to do this would be to:
- Create a severe punishment in order to convey the seriousness of the sin
- Create a severe punishment to deter the people from committing sin
- Emphasize that the enemies of God partake in such sinful behavior (therefore an Israelite would become an enemy of God by committing one of the above mentioned sins; no Israelite would want to be compared to their enemy nor become their own enemy)
- A way to explain that when an individual sins, the punishment they receive is brought upon them only by themselves
- God wants the people to be unified; some individuals may need to be threatened with more severe punishments than others because perhaps they have a weaker character and therefore need stronger motivation to avoid sin (especially a sin that has become a habit) - because of this the threat of a severe punishment needs to be broadly applied to everyone

[/quote]

Can you tell me why these caveats and explanations apply to our sacred text but not to the Koran? Couldn't a Muslim say that "God wanted to steer the Muslims as far away as possible from the sinful customs of neighboring nations."? Couldn't a liberal Muslim (they do exist!) say that the nasty verses in the Koran are "meant to be a deterrent more than anything else"? Is there a specific reason we shouldn't extend them the same benefit of the doubt we give the Jews? The Church does teach that they worship the same God as we do.

[HisChildForever]

The simple difference is that Islam promotes violence (particularly towards non-Muslims), whereas Judaism and Christianity do not. The Qur'an is used to justify atrocities and to encourage believers to commit these atrocities.

Why you are all ignoring the Islamic violence present in our world is beyond my understanding. There are people out there who kill in the name of Allah. There are people out there who hate America and want to kill us, in the name of Allah.

"Islam is a form of government to the world." - Former PLO (Palestine Liberation Organization) terrorist

Islam - A Religion of Peace, or Violence?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=314uem7jMU8

Lilllabettt once addressed questions I had on the Old Testament - I selected verses pertaining to women that cast women in a horrible light. She explained everything so well and so clearly, I hope she does the same for the Old Testament verses provided here. Furthermore, Maggie, perhaps you can select a few of the violent verses in the Qur'an and explain them, using your knowledge and expertise of the subject. Perhaps we can start here:

[b][u]Question:[/u]

Does the Qur'an really contain dozens of verses promoting violence?

[u]Summary Answer:[/u]

The Quran contains at least 109 verses that call Muslims to war with nonbelievers. Some are quite graphic, with commands to chop off heads and fingers and kill infidels wherever they may be hiding. Muslims who do not join the fight are called 'hypocrites' and warned that Allah will send them to Hell if they do not join the slaughter.

These verses are mostly open-ended, meaning that the historical context is not embedded within the surrounding text (as are nearly all of the Old Testament verses of violence). They are part of the eternal, unchanging word of Allah, and just as relevant or subjective as anything else in the Qur'an.

Unfortunately, there are very few verses of tolerance and peace to abrogate or even balance out the many that call for nonbelievers to be fought and subdued until they either accept humiliation, convert to Islam, or are killed. This proclivity toward violence - and Muhammad's own martial legacy - has left a trail of blood and tears across world history.[/b]

One verse being:

[b]They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks. - Qur'an (4:89)[/b]

Link: http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Quran/023-violence.htm

Thoughts, please?

Edited November 27, 2009 by HisChildForever

[Maggyie]

[quote][quote name='HisChildForever' date='27 November 2009 - 12:29 PM' timestamp='1259339374' post='2010245']
The simple difference is that Islam promotes violence (particularly towards non-Muslims), whereas Judaism and Christianity do not. The Qur'an is used to justify atrocities and to encourage believers to commit these atrocities.[/quote]

But do you see how there really is no difference in this respect. The Bible can be used to justify atrocities, too. Jehovah literally orders His people to slaughter women and children after all! Back in the day the Bible was used to justify slavery. The ultra Orthodox use the Old Testament to justify violence. This is why exegesis of complicated sacred texts is not for amateurs. Not that that ever stopped anybody. Again can you please say why you won't give them the benefit of the doubt you extend the Jews?

[quote]Why you are all ignoring the Islamic violence present in our world is beyond my understanding. There are people out there who kill in the name of Allah. There are people out there who hate America and want to kill us, in the name of Allah.[/quote]

I promise I am not trying to ignore Islamic violence. Dealing with a dangerous situation requires an objective understanding of the nature of the threat. The threat is not Islam. The threat is people who feel the best way to defend their way of life against the temptations of the modern world is to blow up the modern world.


[quote]Lilllabettt once addressed questions I had on the Old Testament - I selected verses pertaining to women that cast women in a horrible light. She explained everything so well and so clearly, I hope she does the same for the Old Testament verses provided here. Furthermore, Maggie, perhaps you can select a few of the violent verses in the Qur'an and explain them, using your knowledge and expertise of the subject. Perhaps we can start here:[/quote]

Unfortunately I am not an expert on Islam or the Koran and I would not presume to present myself as capable of interpreting their text. However, look at the way the violent or anti-woman verses in the Bible were explained. Is it likely that similar explanations exist for the Koranic text? YES! Think how we Catholics feel when a novice with no background in Christianity starts badmouthing the Church, talking about how we hate women and using the usual verses as proof. This person is only doing what a non-expert would do when reading a text like that. They don't have the background or the expertise like Lilllabettt has to figure out what is really going on. A similar series of events occurs when an outsider with no training reads a translation of a text like the Koran. It's likely that these violent verses mean different things to different Muslims, although one particular literalist interpretation has proved politically useful to some of them.

Edited November 27, 2009 by Maggie

[Lilllabettt]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='25 November 2009 - 11:05 PM' timestamp='1259204728' post='2009529']
What is a martyr in Christianity? An innocent person who suffers at the hands of those who hate Christ.

What is a martyr in Islam? It can be either an innocent person who suffers at the hands of others, or - and more commonly - it is one who fights and dies in jihad, killing as many people as he can prior to his death.
[/quote]

There are many different categories of martyrs in Islam. The size of the list depends on where you read. People who are crushed, drown, contract plague, or suffer from stomach diseases (my favorite) are all martyrs. Women who die in childbirth are considered martyrs.

And, like you said, people who fight in a jihad are martyrs. It's often translated "die for Allah," which can mean any number of things. You are probably familiar with the argument over spiritual vs. militant jihad.

Even with militant jihad, however, the goal is not to kill as many people as possible. That is not most accurate rendering anyway. The goal of military jihad is winning land, property, souls for Allah. Killing infidels is only incidental.

This idea is not antithetical to the Christian tradition. I am thinking of St. Bernard, preaching the Crusades. People were encouraged to take up arms and engage in battle to win back the Holy Land for Christianity, presumably killing Muslims in the process. Many of the soldiers who died so engaged were/are considered martyrs.

[Lilllabettt]

[quote name='HisChildForever' date='27 November 2009 - 12:29 PM' timestamp='1259339374' post='2010245']

One verse being:

[b]They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks. - Qur'an (4:89)[/b]

Link: http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Quran/023-violence.htm

Thoughts, please?
[/quote]

The "they" being referred to in this part of the Koran are referred to as "Hypocrites," eg., apostates from Islam who were persecuting the Muslim community in Mecca at the time. There are similar injunctions in Jewish teaching, and even in St. Paul, admonishing people from forming friendships, marriages, or otherwise "mixing" with sinners.

But what about that "kill them wherever you find them" stuff?

Well, the next verse (4:90) directly following the one you quote says: "Except those who [...] come unto you because their hearts forbid them to make war on you or make war on their own folk [..] So, if they wage not war against you and offer you peace, Allah alloweth you no way against them."

It seems pretty clear from the context that the admonishment to kill them wherever they are found ... refers to people who want to make war on the Islamic community. Not just any old infidel, but infidels with a violent axe to grind.

Of course, other people have their own interpretations.

There are two "threads" within the Koranic text; one more kumbaya, the other more warlike, both following the ebb and flow of militancy in Mohammad's experience. When his tribe was at war, his religious teaching took on a warlike character. When his tribe was at peace, the tone was more conciliatory. This is par for the course where uninspired religious literature is concerned.

Islam is, like all man-made religions, "contested." Different groups are fighting each other to "define" Islam ... when Westerners take a belligerent attitude towards Islam, they strengthen the hand of those who want to give Islam a militant definition.

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='Lilllabettt' date='27 November 2009 - 05:57 PM' timestamp='1259362658' post='2010381']
Even with militant jihad, however, the goal is not to kill as many people as possible. That is not most accurate rendering anyway. The goal of military jihad is winning land, property, souls for Allah. Killing infidels is only incidental.
[/quote]

Then how do you explain 9/11 and other acts of Islamic terror, in which innocent civilians of foreign countries are purposefully attacked?

[quote name='Lilllabettt' date='27 November 2009 - 06:33 PM' timestamp='1259364784' post='2010392']
The "they" being referred to in this part of the Koran are referred to as "Hypocrites," eg., apostates from Islam who were persecuting the Muslim community in Mecca at the time. There are similar injunctions in Jewish teaching, and even in St. Paul, admonishing people from forming friendships, marriages, or otherwise "mixing" with sinners.

But what about that "kill them wherever you find them" stuff?

Well, the next verse (4:90) directly following the one you quote says: "Except those who [...] come unto you because their hearts forbid them to make war on you or make war on their own folk [..] So, if they wage not war against you and offer you peace, Allah alloweth you no way against them."

It seems pretty clear from the context that the admonishment to kill them wherever they are found ... refers to people who want to make war on the Islamic community. Not just any old infidel, but infidels with a violent axe to grind.

Of course, other people have their own interpretations.

There are two "threads" within the Koranic text; one more kumbaya, the other more warlike, both following the ebb and flow of militancy in Mohammad's experience. When his tribe was at war, his religious teaching took on a warlike character. When his tribe was at peace, the tone was more conciliatory. This is par for the course where uninspired religious literature is concerned.

Islam is, like all man-made religions, "contested." Different groups are fighting each other to "define" Islam ... when Westerners take a belligerent attitude towards Islam, they strengthen the hand of those who want to give Islam a militant definition.
[/quote]

Thank you for taking the time to formulate this response. I feel that the following article is relevant to our current discussion, and I have emphasized certain parts that are especially relevant. These parts explain that there are different interpretations of the Qur'an, and what this means; that Islam calls war against all infidels, not just those who wish to wage war against Islam; and why the West is justified in taking on its "belligerent attitude" towards Islam.

[b][u]Islam's Violent Core[/u]

The world in general has been sickened by the savage beheadings of innocent people by Islamic fundamentalists. But we really shouldn't be surprised.

Daniel Pearl in Pakistan and Nick Berg in Iraq, both Jews, were the first to suffer this modern revival of historic Islamic savagery. Then it was another American, Paul Johnson in Saudi Arabia. And then South Korean Kim Sun-il in Iraq, a reported born-again Christian. All were murdered without mercy by Muslims proclaiming the by now familiar mantra of praise, "Allahu akbar" [Allah is great].

The suicide crews flew American planes into the World Trade Center buildings and the Pentagon on 9-11 shouting, "Allah is great." Clearly these Muslims saw themselves carrying out their actions for a religiously based cause in the name of Allah.

[u]It is important to note that these acts of barbarism were committed by diverse ethnic groups of Muslim zealots in different places. This reveals that there is a cohesive source that motivates all of them to commit such atrocities.[/u]

The West – and especially the United States – continues to cling to the myth that "Islam is a religion of peace." History reveals this is simply not true.

Islam is not like Christianity, which teaches one should love his enemy. Christians seek to win converts by a loving presentation of the message of Christ's offer of pardon for sin that He purchased by dying in our place.

[u]On the other hand – according to the Quran – in places where Islam rules, it is to offer no mercy to the "infidel unbeliever" unless he converts to Islam. If he is allowed to live, he must live as a third-rate citizen and suffer all sorts of abuses with no legal rights to protect him. He is excessively taxed for "the privilege" of living among Muslims.[/u]

The cohesive core of Islam that continues to inspire its long history of violence is the Quran and the sayings and actions of Muhammad, himself. [u]The many biographies of Muhammad reveal that he employed murder and war repeatedly to advance Islam. When he conquered Medina, he and his troops beheaded all the adult Jewish men, which Muslim sources place at over 600. So the practice of beheading "infidels," especially Jews, is well established by Muhammad himself.[/u]

[u]Many scholars believe we are actually in the Third Great Jihad in the history of Islam.[/u] The first was the original Great Jihad that spread Islam from the Atlantic to the borders of China. The second Great Jihad created the vast Ottoman Turk Empire. The third Great Jihad began with the takeover of Iran by the Ayatollah Khomeini and the defeat of the Soviet Union in Afghanistan by the "holy warriors" of Islam who came there to fight from all over the Muslim world.

[u]The goal of the Third Great Jihad is to drive all Western influence out of the Middle East and to restore it to Muslim rule as it was in the seventh century. Central to this is the obliteration of the state of Israel.[/u] They will not accept American style "democracy." To them, this is an inherent part of a degenerate Judeo-Christian culture and is anti-Islam.

The victory over Soviet military forces in Afghanistan gave inspiration to the Muslim warriors that goes far beyond our realization. They surmised that the reason they prevailed over the mighty Soviet war machine was their complete fundamental faith in the Quran. From that, they reasoned that Muslim warriors have suffered such humiliating defeats in the battles of recent times because they have forsaken pure devotion to the fundamental teachings of the Quran and Muhammad.

The firebrand Osama bin Laden was one of these "holy warriors" who fervently applied these lessons. He proclaimed that he would lead a revival of Islam that would cleanse their lands of all "infidels" and re-establish former Muslim glory.

Osama bin Laden, with his group of "holy warriors" who had come from many Muslim communities around the world, issued a "fatwa." A "fatwa" is a legally binding interpretation of the Quran for a contemporary issue written by an Islamic scholar. Part of Osama's fatwa – dated February 1998 – proclaimed:

[i][u]The ruling to kill the Americans and their allies – civilians and military – is an individual duty for every Muslim who can do it in any country in which it is possible to do it,[/u] in order to liberate the al-Aqsa Mosque [in Jerusalem] and the holy mosque [in Mecca] from their grip, and in order for their armies to move out of all the lands of Islam, defeated and unable to threaten any Muslim.

[u]This is in accordance with the words of Almighty Allah "and fight the pagans all together as they fight you all together," and "fight them until there is no more tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in Allah."[/u][/i]

We must not underestimate the power and impact of this "fatwa" upon the millions of young Muslim men who are demoralized over the decline of Islam in recent centuries. [u]The message of Osama bin Laden that was forged in the fire of battle with the Soviet military strikes a deep, resonant chord in the hearts of young Muslims longing to restore the former glory of Islam. To them, Muhammad's division of the world into only two groups is the only truth. Muhammad taught that the world is divided into "the house of Islam" and the "house of war." Every land outside of Islamic rule is considered a place for war.[/u]

If we merely dismiss these facts as the ravings of a few fanatics, we do so at our great peril. [u]About 15 percent of the 1.3 billion Muslims in the world are now fundamentalists. That's about 195 million Muslim zealots scattered over the world who are bent upon the destruction of the United States.[/u]

[u][color="#FF0000"]The other 85 percent of Muslims are not fundamentalists, but their beliefs are not based on a literal interpretation of the Quran and the acts of Muhammad. And they rarely speak out strongly enough against the Muslim fundamentalists to make a difference. If there is a "peaceful" majority of Muslims, they had better speak out clearly and strongly against the growing power of the fundamentalists, or they will be confused with the Muslims who bring future terrorist acts against this country.[/u][/color]

When Muslim fundamentalists launch attacks against our citizens that kill tens of thousands, there will surely be a release of fury that will not be so discerning of what kind of a Muslim a person is, unless he has made it very clear beforehand.

At this very moment, there are some devout Muslims plotting massive attacks against the United States. We must wake up to this reality that they are in our midst and start focusing all our resources on the places where they are most likely to be found. [u]It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure that out – just one who is willing to be politically incorrect.[/u][/b]

Source: http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=39116

Edited November 28, 2009 by HisChildForever

[KnightofChrist]

Qur'an:9:88 "The Messenger and those who believe with him, strive hard and fight with their wealth and lives in Allah's Cause."

Qur'an:9:5 "Fight and kill the disbelievers wherever you find them, take them captive, harass them, lie in wait and ambush them using every stratagem of war."

Qur'an:9:112 "The Believers fight in Allah's Cause, they slay and are slain, kill and are killed."

Qur'an:9:29 "Fight those who do not believe until they all surrender, paying the protective tax in submission."

Ishaq:325 "Muslims, fight in Allah's Cause. Stand firm and you will prosper. Help the Prophet, obey him, give him your allegiance, and your religion will be victorious."

Qur'an:8:39 "Fight them until all opposition ends and all submit to Allah."

Qur'an:8:39 "So fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief [non-Muslims]) and all submit to the religion of Allah alone (in the whole world)."

Ishaq:324 "He said, 'Fight them so that there is no more rebellion, and religion, all of it, is for Allah only. Allah must have no rivals.'"

Qur'an:9:14 "Fight them and Allah will punish them by your hands, lay them low, and cover them with shame. He will help you over them."

Ishaq:300 "I am fighting in Allah's service. This is piety and a good deed. In Allah's war I do not fear as others should. For this fighting is righteous, true, and good."

Ishaq:587 "Our onslaught will not be a weak faltering affair. We shall fight as long as we live. We will fight until you turn to Islam, humbly seeking refuge. We will fight not caring whom we meet. We will fight whether we destroy ancient holdings or newly gotten gains. We have mutilated every opponent. We have driven them violently before us at the command of Allah and Islam. We will fight until our religion is established. And we will plunder them, for they must suffer disgrace."

Qur'an:8:65 "O Prophet, urge the faithful to fight. If there are twenty among you with determination they will vanquish two hundred; if there are a hundred then they will slaughter a thousand unbelievers, for the infidels are a people devoid of understanding."

Ishaq:326 "Prophet exhort the believers to fight. If there are twenty good fighters they will defeat two hundred for they are a senseless people. They do not fight with good intentions nor for truth."

Bukhari:V4B52N63 "A man whose face was covered with an iron mask came to the Prophet and said, 'Allah's Apostle! Shall I fight or embrace Islam first?' The Prophet said, 'Embrace Islam first and then fight.' So he embraced Islam, and was martyred. Allah's Apostle said, 'A Little work, but a great reward.'"

Bukhari:V4B53N386 "Our Prophet, the Messenger of our Lord, ordered us to fight you till you worship Allah alone or pay us the Jizyah tribute tax in submission. Our Prophet has informed us that our Lord says: 'Whoever amongst us is killed as a martyr shall go to Paradise to lead such a luxurious life as he has never seen, and whoever survives shall become your master.'"

Muslim:C34B20N4668 "The Messenger said: 'Anybody who equips a warrior going to fight in the Way of Allah is like one who actually fights. And anybody who looks after his family in his absence is also like one who actually fights."

Qur'an:9:38 "Believers, what is the matter with you, that when you are asked to go forth and fight in Allah's Cause you cling to the earth? Do you prefer the life of this world to the Hereafter? Unless you go forth, He will afflict and punish you with a painful doom, and put others in your place."

Qur'an:9:123 "Fight the unbelievers around you, and let them find harshness in you."

Qur'an:8:72 "Those who accepted Islam and left their homes to fight in Allah's Cause with their possessions and persons, and those who gave (them) asylum, aid, and shelter, those who harbored them - these are allies of one another. You are not responsible for protecting those who embraced Islam but did not leave their homes [to fight] until they do so." [Another translation reads:] "You are only called to protect Muslims who fight."

Muslim:C9B1N31 "I have been commanded to fight against people till they testify to the fact that there is no god but Allah, and believe in me (that) I am the Messenger and in all that I have brought."

Bukhari:V9B84N59 "Whoever says this will save his property and life from me.'"

Qur'an:8:73 "The unbelieving infidels are allies. Unless you (Muslims) aid each other (fighting as one united block to make Allah's religion victorious), there will be confusion and mischief. Those who accepted Islam, left their homes to fight in Allah's Cause (al-Jihad), as well as those who give them asylum, shelter, and aid - these are (all) Believers: for them is pardon and bountiful provision (in Paradise)."

Tabari IX:69 "Arabs are the most noble people in lineage, the most prominent, and the best in deeds. We were the first to respond to the call of the Prophet. We are Allah's helpers and the viziers of His Messenger. We fight people until they believe in Allah. He who believes in Allah and His Messenger has protected his life and possessions from us. As for one who disbelieves, we will fight him forever in the Cause of Allah. Killing him is a small matter to us."

Qur'an:48:16 "Say (Muhammad) to the wandering desert Arabs who lagged behind: 'You shall be invited to fight against a people given to war with mighty prowess. You shall fight them until they surrender and submit. If you obey, Allah will grant you a reward, but if you turn back, as you did before, He will punish you with a grievous torture."

Qur'an:48:22 "If the unbelieving infidels fight against you, they will retreat. (Such has been) the practice (approved) of Allah in the past: no change will you find in the ways of Allah."

Qur'an:47:4 "When you clash with the unbelieving Infidels in battle (fighting Jihad in Allah's Cause), smite their necks until you overpower them, killing and wounding many of them. At length, when you have thoroughly subdued them, bind them firmly, making (them) captives. Thereafter either generosity or ransom (them based upon what benefits Islam) until the war lays down its burdens. Thus are you commanded by Allah to continue carrying out Jihad against the unbelieving infidels until they submit to Islam."

Qur'an:47:31 "And We shall try you until We know those among you who are the fighters."

Tabari VI:138 "Those present at the oath of Aqabah had sworn an allegiance to Muhammad. It was a pledge of war against all men. Allah had permitted fighting."

Tabari VI:139 "Allah had given his Messenger permission to fight by revealing the verse 'And fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is all for Allah.'"

Qur'an:9:19 "Do you make the giving of drink to pilgrims, or the maintenance of the Mosque, equal to those who fight in the Cause of Allah? They are not comparable in the sight of Allah. Those who believe, and left their homes, striving with might, fighting in Allah's Cause with their goods and their lives, have the highest rank in the sight of Allah."

Ishaq:550 "The Muslims met them with their swords. They cut through many arms and skulls. Only confused cries and groans could be heard over our battle roars and snarling."

Qur'an:5:94 "Believers, Allah will make a test for you in the form of a little game in which you reach out for your lances. Any who fails this test will have a grievous punishment."

Ishaq:578 "Crushing the heads of the infidels and splitting their skulls with sharp swords, we continually thrust and cut at the enemy. Blood gushed from their deep wounds as the battle wore them down. We conquered bearing the Prophet's fluttering war banner. Our cavalry was submerged in rising dust, and our spears quivered, but by us the Prophet gained victory."

Tabari IX:22 "The Prophet continued to besiege the town, fighting them bitterly."

Tabari IX:25 "By Allah, I did not come to fight for nothing. I wanted a victory over Ta'if so that I might obtain a slave girl from them and make her pregnant."

Tabari IX:82 "The Messenger sent Khalid with an army of 400 to Harith [a South Arabian tribe] and ordered him to invite them to Islam for three days before he fought them. If they were to respond and submit, he was to teach them the Book of Allah, the Sunnah of His Prophet, and the requirements of Islam. If they should decline, then he was to fight them."

Tabari IX:88 "Abdallah Azdi came to the Messenger, embraced Islam, and became a good Muslim. Allah's Apostle invested Azdi with the authority over those who had surrendered and ordered him to fight the infidels from the tribes of Yemen. Azdi left with an army by the Messenger's command. The Muslims besieged them for a month. Then they withdrew, setting a trap. When the Yemenites went in pursuit, Azdi was able to inflict a heavy loss on them."

Ishaq:530 "Get out of his way, you infidel unbelievers. Every good thing goes with the Apostle. Lord, I believe in his word. We will fight you about its interpretations as we have fought you about its revelation with strokes that will remove heads from shoulders and make enemies of friends."

[url="http://prophetofdoom.net/Islamic_Quotes.Islam"]source[/url]

[Lilllabettt]

[quote name='HisChildForever' date='27 November 2009 - 07:59 PM' timestamp='1259366348' post='2010403']
Then how do you explain 9/11 and other acts of Islamic terror, in which innocent civilians of foreign countries are purposefully attacked?

Thank you for taking the time to formulate this response. I feel that the following article is relevant to our current discussion, and I have emphasized certain parts that are especially relevant. These parts explain that there are different interpretations of the Qur'an, and what this means; that Islam calls war against all infidels, not just those who wish to wage war against Islam; and why the West is justified in taking on its "belligerent attitude" towards Islam.

[b][u]Islam's Violent Core[/u]

The world in general has been sickened by the savage beheadings of innocent people by Islamic fundamentalists. But we really shouldn't be surprised.

Daniel Pearl in Pakistan and Nick Berg in Iraq, both Jews, were the first to suffer this modern revival of historic Islamic savagery. Then it was another American, Paul Johnson in Saudi Arabia. And then South Korean Kim Sun-il in Iraq, a reported born-again Christian. All were murdered without mercy by Muslims proclaiming the by now familiar mantra of praise, "Allahu akbar" [Allah is great].

The suicide crews flew American planes into the World Trade Center buildings and the Pentagon on 9-11 shouting, "Allah is great." Clearly these Muslims saw themselves carrying out their actions for a religiously based cause in the name of Allah.

[u]It is important to note that these acts of barbarism were committed by diverse ethnic groups of Muslim zealots in different places. This reveals that there is a cohesive source that motivates all of them to commit such atrocities.[/u]

The West – and especially the United States – continues to cling to the myth that "Islam is a religion of peace." History reveals this is simply not true.

Islam is not like Christianity, which teaches one should love his enemy. Christians seek to win converts by a loving presentation of the message of Christ's offer of pardon for sin that He purchased by dying in our place.

[u]On the other hand – according to the Quran – in places where Islam rules, it is to offer no mercy to the "infidel unbeliever" unless he converts to Islam. If he is allowed to live, he must live as a third-rate citizen and suffer all sorts of abuses with no legal rights to protect him. He is excessively taxed for "the privilege" of living among Muslims.[/u]

The cohesive core of Islam that continues to inspire its long history of violence is the Quran and the sayings and actions of Muhammad, himself. [u]The many biographies of Muhammad reveal that he employed murder and war repeatedly to advance Islam. When he conquered Medina, he and his troops beheaded all the adult Jewish men, which Muslim sources place at over 600. So the practice of beheading "infidels," especially Jews, is well established by Muhammad himself.[/u]

[u]Many scholars believe we are actually in the Third Great Jihad in the history of Islam.[/u] The first was the original Great Jihad that spread Islam from the Atlantic to the borders of China. The second Great Jihad created the vast Ottoman Turk Empire. The third Great Jihad began with the takeover of Iran by the Ayatollah Khomeini and the defeat of the Soviet Union in Afghanistan by the "holy warriors" of Islam who came there to fight from all over the Muslim world.






[/quote]


The way I explain it is: terrorism is not about religion. It is about politics. Because Islam mixes politics and religion in serious ways, it is easy for terrorists to claim a religious underpinning for their actions.

I can go into why this is the case, but it will take a long time. It is such a long story. Just one chapter: Rashid Rida was a Salafist (you mention them in your OP). He founded the magazine [i]al-Manar[/i] ("the lighthouse") to propogate his vision of Islam which would combine Islamic traditions with Western political ideas of democracy, modernity, etc.

Fast forward to WWI, when the British promise Sherif Hussein the guardian of Mecca, an Arab State in modern-day Syria if he would help them defeat the Ottoman Empire. Fast forward to the end of the war, and the British have somehow managed to promise the same Syrian area to France. Hussein's son, Faysal, tries to set up an Arab state, the "Kingdom of Syria," with a constitutional monarchy, votes for women, the whole nine yards. Rashid Rida, Mr. Salafist himself, is the Vice President of Kingdom of Syria. But then the treaty of Sevres (ending WWI w/ the Ottoman empire) cancels the British promise to the Arabs, and the French roll tanks over Faysal.

Deeply embittered, Rashid Rida turns against Western political experiments altogether and advocates instead a theocratic type of government ... in this he directly inspired al-Banna, the founder of the "Muslim Brotherhood," .. (you may be familiar with the terrorism of their Palestinian branch, Hammas.) Eventually [i]al Manar[/i] became a virtual mouthpiece of the Muslim Brotherhood. The style of government in Iran also has roots in his ideas.

This is just one episode, one little particle of a thousand. But the story is repeated over and over again. The essential thing is a just or unjust political grievance. These people use religion to back them up. But they are using violence to get at politics.

Another point: I would question whatever scholars refers to the Iranian Revolution as a starting point for a "Third Great Jihad." The Shia take-over was the spark that ignited the Iran-Iraq war. Saddam, a Sunni, was afraid the Shia revolution in Iran would spill over to his Shia majority country and spell his political demise. So, he attacked, and the resulting decade-long war featured Muslims killing over one million of each other.

The vast majority of the Islamic world is Sunni, and that sect views the government in Iran as a heretical blasphemy.

So what Islamic scholar would point to that as the beginning of a "great Jihad" I don't know. They don't look at themselves as a monolith.

[Lilllabettt]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' date='27 November 2009 - 08:36 PM' timestamp='1259368566' post='2010416']
Qur'an:9:88 "The Messenger and those who believe with him, strive hard and fight with their wealth and lives in Allah's Cause."

Qur'an:9:5 [etc.,]
[/quote]


This is a cut and paste job. Do you want me to go through each one, one at a time? It will take forever. But I will do it if that's what's required to prove the futility of pulling lines from the Koran. It's just impossible to take one line or even an entire section and just read it and come up with an interpretation.

(I had a professor who made us do this with random verses from the Koran. It was WORK. ick. and i have an upper division Islamic theology course coming up this semester. Shiver me timbers, guess I could use the practice.)

Edited November 28, 2009 by Lilllabettt

[KnightofChrist]

Tabari IX:113 "Allah permits you to shut them in separate rooms and to beat them, but not severely. If they abstain, they have the right to food and clothing. Treat women well for they are like domestic animals and they possess nothing themselves. Allah has made the enjoyment of their bodies lawful in his Qur'an."

Tabari I:280 "Allah said, 'It is My obligation to make Eve bleed once every month as she made this tree bleed. I must also make Eve stupid, although I created her intelligent.' Because Allah afflicted Eve, all of the women of this world menstruate and are stupid."

Qur'an 4:3 "If you fear that you shall not be able to deal justly with orphans, marry women of your choice who seem good to you, two or three or four; but if you fear that you shall not be able to do justice (to so many), then only one, or (a slave) that you possess, that will be more suitable. And give the women their dower as a free gift; but if they, of their own good pleasure, remit any part of it to you, eat it with enjoyment, take it with right good cheer and absorb it (in your wealth)."

Qur'an 4:11 "Allah directs you in regard of your Children's (inheritance): to the male, a portion equal to that of two females.... These are settled portions ordained by Allah."

Bukhari:V1B22N28 "The Prophet said: 'I was shown the Hell Fire and the majority of its dwellers were women who are disbelievers or ungrateful.' When asked what they were ungrateful for, the Prophet answered, 'All the favors done for them by their husbands.'"

Muslim:B1N142 "'O womenfolk, you should ask for forgiveness for I saw you in bulk amongst the dwellers of Hell.' A wise lady said: Why is it, Allah's Apostle, that women comprise the bulk of the inhabitants of Hell? The Prophet observed: 'You curse too much and are ungrateful to your spouses. You lack common sense, fail in religion and rob the wisdom of the wise.' Upon this the woman remarked: What is wrong with our common sense? The Prophet replied, 'Your lack of common sense can be determined from the fact that the evidence of two women is equal to one man. That is a proof.'"

Qur'an 2:282 "And get two witnesses out of your own men. And if there are not two men (available), then a man and two women [a man is worth two women, and one man is always needed], such as you agree for witnesses, so that if one of them (two women) errs, the other can remind her."

Qur'an 4:43 "Believers, approach not prayers with a mind befogged or intoxicated until you understand what you utter. Nor when you are polluted, until after you have bathed. If you are ill, or on a journey, or come from answering the call of nature, or you have touched a woman, and you find no water, then take for yourselves clean dirt, and rub your faces and hands. Lo! Allah is Benign, Forgiving." [The Qur'an claims women are unclean and polluted - worse than dirt.]

Bukhari:V4B55N547 "The Prophet said, 'But for the Israelis, meat would not decay, and if it were not for Eve, wives would never betray their husbands.'"

Qur'an 33:59 "Prophet! Tell your wives and daughters and all Muslim women to draw cloaks and veils all over their bodies (screening themselves completely except for one or two eyes to see the way). That will be better."

Qur'an 4:15 "If any of your women are guilty of lewdness, take the evidence of four witnesses from amongst you against them; if they testify, confine them to houses until death [by starvation] claims them."

[url="http://prophetofdoom.net/Islamic_Quotes_Women.Islam"]source[/url]

[Lilllabettt]

more cut and paste

[HisChildForever]

Lilllabettt,

Unfortunately, you failed to acknowledge the parts in the article that addressed Islamic violence. What do you make of these sections?

[quote] On the other hand – according to the Quran – in places where Islam rules, it is to offer no mercy to the "infidel unbeliever" unless he converts to Islam. If he is allowed to live, he must live as a third-rate citizen and suffer all sorts of abuses with no legal rights to protect him. He is excessively taxed for "the privilege" of living among Muslims. [/quote]

[quote] If we merely dismiss these facts as the ravings of a few fanatics, we do so at our great peril. About 15 percent of the 1.3 billion Muslims in the world are now fundamentalists. That's about 195 million Muslim zealots scattered over the world who are bent upon the destruction of the United States.

The other 85 percent of Muslims are not fundamentalists, but their beliefs are not based on a literal interpretation of the Quran and the acts of Muhammad. And they rarely speak out strongly enough against the Muslim fundamentalists to make a difference. If there is a "peaceful" majority of Muslims, they had better speak out clearly and strongly against the growing power of the fundamentalists, or they will be confused with the Muslims who bring future terrorist acts against this country. [/quote]

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='Lilllabettt' date='27 November 2009 - 07:47 PM' timestamp='1259369257' post='2010420']
This is a cut and paste job. Do you want me to go through each one, one at a time? It will take forever. But I will do it if that's what's required to prove the futility of pulling lines from the Koran. It's just impossible to take one line or even an entire section and just read it and come up with an interpretation.

(I had a professor who made us do this with random verses from the Koran. It was WORK. ick. and i have an upper division Islamic theology course coming up this semester. Shiver me timbers, guess I could use the practice.)
[/quote]

You can try but according to Islam your testimony is only half the worth of mine. And you are like a "domestic animal" too "stupid", and you would be ungrateful to me a man which could beaver dam you to hell.

Edited November 28, 2009 by KnightofChrist

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' date='27 November 2009 - 07:54 PM' timestamp='1259369658' post='2010426']
You can try but according to Islam your testimony is only half the worth of mine. And you are like a "domestic animal" to "stupid", and you would be ungrateful to me a man which could beaver dam you to hell.
[/quote]

Islam is anti-woman.