Under The Islamic Veil: Faces Disfigured By Acid

[OraProMe]

[quote name='HisChildForever' date='25 November 2009 - 11:09 PM' timestamp='1259208545' post='2009563']
The behaviors I listed were not intended to be a generalization of the world's Muslims. Rather, the behaviors I listed are examples of the ways people have suffered under Islam. Perhaps you should read the post carefully before replying to it.




I really and truly do not want to derail my thread, but Christianity - which you seem keen on discrediting these days - calls people to love homosexuals regardless of their sinful sexual activity. Even if the individual is participating in those activities, we are called to pray for them.

Islam, however?

[b]According to a pamphlet produced by Al-Fatiha, there is a consensus among Islamic scholars that all humans are naturally heterosexual. 5 Homosexuality is seen by scholars to be a sinful and perverted deviation from the norm. All Islamic schools of thought and jurisprudence consider gay acts to be unlawful. They differ in terms of penalty:

The Hanafite school (currently seen mainly in South and Eastern Asia) teaches that no physical punishment is warranted.

The Hanabalites, (widely followed in the Arab world) teach that severe punishment is warranted.

The Sha'fi school of thought (also seen in the Arab world) requires a minimum of 4 adult male witnesses before a person can be found guilty of a homosexual act. Al-Fatiha estimates that 4,000 homosexuals have been executed in Iran since their revolution in 1979. 10 public executions of homosexuals have been performed in Afghanistan by the Taliban army. [/b]

Link: http://www.missionislam.com/knowledge/homosexuality.htm
[/quote]


HCF,

You said:

[i]"Those people have quoted the Qur'an, i.e. used it in their defense, to justify their barbaric behavior. They did not twist the words of the Qur'an, they have directly quoted it."[/i]

My point in posting the links to the WBC is to illustrate that Christian texts are just as susceptible to being quoted to support violence, it really has nothing to do with homosexuality (or Sweden for that matter) but to show that the Qur'an is not the only religious text that can be used to justify less than godly behaviour. That is what that reply was to, please don't try to change the original purpose of my response by bringing up something unrelated.

Edited November 26, 2009 by OraProMe

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='OraProMe' date='26 November 2009 - 06:13 AM' timestamp='1259234029' post='2009641']
HCF,

You said:

[i]"Those people have quoted the Qur'an, i.e. used it in their defense, to justify their barbaric behavior. They did not twist the words of the Qur'an, they have directly quoted it."[/i]

My point in posting the links to the WBC is to illustrate that Christian texts are just as susceptible to being quoted to support violence, it really has nothing to do with homosexuality (or Sweden for that matter) but to show that the Qur'an is not the only religious text that can be used to justify less than godly behaviour. That is what that reply was to, please don't try to change the original purpose of my response by bringing up something unrelated.
[/quote]

Really? Because one of the links you provided was about homosexuality. But that's okay, you can happily ignore Islamic violence against homosexuals.

[quote]"Those people have quoted the Qur'an, i.e. used it in their defense, to justify their barbaric behavior. They did not twist the words of the Qur'an, they have directly quoted it."[/quote]

While Scriptural verses can be taken out of context (and are, as you referenced) Christianity does not promote these perversions of its texts and is explicitly clear with its teachings. There is no denying, however, that Islam does promote violence and this is made explicitly clear time and time again. For examples of this you can refer to my post on women adulterers being stoned, which is legal according to Sharia. The same is applied to the execution and/or corporeal punishment homosexuals suffer simply because they were caught having sexual relations with a member of the same-sex. You can also view a YouTube video I linked, of numerous Muslim clerics supporting the Holocaust and assuring the people that the next time the Jewish people suffer like this, it will be at the hands of Muslims, because Allah so wills it.

Edited November 26, 2009 by HisChildForever

[Varg]

Islam promotes violence?

Deuteronomy 22:13-21 - God demands that we kill girls who are not virgins when they marry.
Deuteronomy 21:18-21 - God deamnds that we kill disobediant teenagers.
Exodus 35:2 - God demands that we kill everyone who works on the Sabbath day.
Leviticus 21:18-21 - God demands the death of homosexuals.

You know what they say about people in glass houses...Stop trying to take the moral high ground as if Christianity is all good and Islam is evil.

Edited November 26, 2009 by Varg

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='Varg' date='26 November 2009 - 12:15 PM' timestamp='1259255735' post='2009728']
Islam promotes violence?

Deuteronomy 22:13-21 - God demands that we kill girls who are not virgins when they marry.
Deuteronomy 21:18-21 - God deamnds that we kill disobediant teenagers.
Exodus 35:2 - God demands that we kill everyone who works on the Sabbath day.
Leviticus 21:18-21 - God demands the death of homosexuals.

You know what they say about people in glass houses...Stop trying to take the moral high ground as if Christianity is all good and Islam is evil.
[/quote] The Church teaches that the Mosaic law was imperfect and that it was abrogated by the death of the Christ. (See Mystici Corporis Christi of Pope Pius XII.)

[Hassan]

[quote name='HisChildForever' date='26 November 2009 - 11:34 AM' timestamp='1259253243' post='2009718']
Really? Because one of the links you provided was about homosexuality. But that's okay, you can happily ignore Islamic violence against homosexuals. While Scriptural verses can be taken out of context (and are, as you referenced) Christianity does not promote these perversions of its texts and is explicitly clear with its teachings. There is no denying, however, that Islam does promote violence and this is made explicitly clear time and time again. For examples of this you can refer to my post on women adulterers being stoned, which is legal according to Sharia. The same is applied to the execution and/or corporeal punishment homosexuals suffer simply because they were caught having sexual relations with a member of the same-sex. You can also view a YouTube video I linked, of numerous Muslim clerics supporting the Holocaust and assuring the people that the next time the Jewish people suffer like this, it will be at the hands of Muslims, because Allah so wills it.
[/quote]


Again, again, and again: Sharia is not a tangible thing. You are thinking of fiqh.

The Torah also orders the execution of adulters and homosexuals. I guess we may now conclude that Judaism indeniable promotes violence.

Of course this would be an uninformed and simplistic conclusion to draw about Judaism for the same reason is is ignorant and simplistic to draw such a conclusion about Islam.

[Hassan]

I agree with that Hassan guy. He's very wise.

Not to mention clever...and awesome.

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='Resurrexi' date='26 November 2009 - 12:44 PM' timestamp='1259257453' post='2009746']
The Church teaches that the Mosaic law was imperfect and that it was abrogated by the death of the Christ. (See Mystici Corporis Christi of Pope Pius XII.)
[/quote]

Very well said. I would also like to point out two problems with the examples Varg gave. One, Deuteronomy 21:18-21 does not mention teenagers at all, but sons. The verse is not specific at all in reference to age. As for Leviticus 21:18-21...

[b]Therefore, he who has any of the following defects may not come forward: he who is blind, or lame, or who has any disfigurement or malformation, or a crippled foot or hand, or who is hump-backed or weakly or walleyed, or who is afflicted with eczema, ringworm or hernia. No descendant of Aaron the priest who has any such defect may draw near to offer up the oblations of the LORD; on account of his defect he may not draw near to offer up the food of his God. - Leviticus 21:18-21[/b]

...how did Varg interpret that as "God demands the death of homosexuals"?

In any event, if anyone would like to continue this discussion, please create another thread because this one is not about the Old Testament. Thank you.

Edited November 27, 2009 by HisChildForever

[Hassan]

[quote name='HisChildForever' date='27 November 2009 - 01:26 AM' timestamp='1259303169' post='2010156']
Very well said. I would also like to point out two problems with the examples Varg gave. One, Deuteronomy 21:18-21 does not mention teenagers at all, but sons. The verse is not specific at all in reference to age. As for Leviticus 21:18-21...

[b]Therefore, he who has any of the following defects may not come forward: he who is blind, or lame, or who has any disfigurement or malformation, or a crippled foot or hand, or who is hump-backed or weakly or walleyed, or who is afflicted with eczema, ringworm or hernia. No descendant of Aaron the priest who has any such defect may draw near to offer up the oblations of the LORD; on account of his defect he may not draw near to offer up the food of his God. - Leviticus 21:18-21[/b]

...how did Varg interpret that as "God demands the death of homosexuals"?

In any event, if anyone would like to continue this discussion, please create another thread because this one is not about the Old Testament. Thank you.
[/quote]


Oh oh oh!!!!

HCF!!!1

Ask res in what sense the Old Testament law was imperfect.


fyi

20:13
[i]
If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.[/i]

Edited November 27, 2009 by Hassan

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='Hassan' date='27 November 2009 - 01:25 AM' timestamp='1259303103' post='2010154']
I agree with that Hassan guy. He's very wise.

Not to mention clever...and awesome.
[/quote]

Be careful, Fidei might come back and call you prideful next.

[Hassan]

[quote name='HisChildForever' date='27 November 2009 - 01:29 AM' timestamp='1259303343' post='2010158']
Be careful, Fidei might come back and call you prideful next.
[/quote]


I care not what that infidel says. He denies that the dynamic energies of Wolfarthian static dynamism is valid in traditional fiqh.

This is caused by his moral ineptitude.

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='Hassan' date='27 November 2009 - 01:28 AM' timestamp='1259303293' post='2010157']
[i]If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.[/i]
[/quote]

Thanks. I would like to point out that, in the surrounding verses, individuals who commit adultery and bestiality will also be put to death. Clearly these are very extreme sentences; however, these sentences are meant to be a deterrent more than anything else, because "do not conform, therefore, to the customs of the nations whom I am driving out of your way, because all these things that they have done have filled me with disgust for them" (Leviticus 20:23). God wanted to steer the Israelites as far away as possible from the sinful customs of neighboring nations.

The best and the quickest way to do this would be to:
- Create a severe punishment in order to convey the seriousness of the sin
- Create a severe punishment to deter the people from committing sin
- Emphasize that the enemies of God partake in such sinful behavior (therefore an Israelite would become an enemy of God by committing one of the above mentioned sins; no Israelite would want to be compared to their enemy nor become their own enemy)
- A way to explain that when an individual sins, the punishment they receive is brought upon them only by themselves
- God wants the people to be unified; some individuals may need to be threatened with more severe punishments than others because perhaps they have a weaker character and therefore need stronger motivation to avoid sin (especially a sin that has become a habit) - because of this the threat of a severe punishment needs to be broadly applied to everyone

There are a couple of threads in the Q&A section that discuss the Old Testament:

"God of Love vs. God of Old Testament" -> http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=98589&view=&hl=old%20testament&fromsearch=1
"Old Testament Laws" -> http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=75682&view=&hl=old%20testament&fromsearch=1
"God's Laws" -> http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=92753&view=&hl=old%20testament%20violence&fromsearch=1
"Eye for an eye?" -> http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=81962&view=&hl=old%20testament%20violence&fromsearch=1


Again, this thread is not about the Old Testament. Please create a new thread or post any further questions in Q&A.

Edited November 27, 2009 by HisChildForever

[Hassan]

[quote name='HisChildForever' date='27 November 2009 - 02:01 AM' timestamp='1259305275' post='2010167']
Thanks. I would like to point out that, in the surrounding verses, individuals who commit adultery and bestiality will also be put to death. Clearly these are very extreme sentences; however, these sentences are meant to be a deterrent more than anything else, because "do not conform, therefore, to the customs of the nations whom I am driving out of your way, because all these things that they have done have filled me with disgust for them" (Leviticus 20:23). God wanted to steer the Israelites as far away as possible from the sinful customs of neighboring nations.

The best and the quickest way to do this would be to:
- Create a severe punishment in order to convey the seriousness of the sin
- Create a severe punishment to deter the people from committing sin
- Emphasize that the enemies of God partake in such sinful behavior (therefore an Israelite would become an enemy of God by committing one of the above mentioned sins; no Israelite would want to be compared to their enemy nor become their own enemy)
- A way to explain that when an individual sins, the punishment they receive is brought upon them only by themselves
- God wants the people to be unified; some individuals may need to be threatened with more severe punishments than others because perhaps they have a weaker character and therefore need stronger motivation to avoid sin (especially a sin that has become a habit) - because of this the threat of a severe punishment needs to be broadly applied to everyone

There are a couple of threads in the Q&A section that discuss the Old Testament:

"God of Love vs. God of Old Testament" -> http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=98589&view=&hl=old%20testament&fromsearch=1
"Old Testament Laws" -> http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=75682&view=&hl=old%20testament&fromsearch=1
"God's Laws" -> http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=92753&view=&hl=old%20testament%20violence&fromsearch=1
"Eye for an eye?" -> http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=81962&view=&hl=old%20testament%20violence&fromsearch=1


Again, this thread is not about the Old Testament. Please create a new thread or post any further questions in Q&A.
[/quote]

Your capacity for cognitive dissonance is truly, truly astounding.

[Hassan]

[i]
Thanks. I would like to point out that, in the surrounding verses, individuals who commit adultery and bestiality will also be put to death. Clearly these are very extreme sentences; however, these sentences are meant to be a deterrent more than anything else, because "do not conform, therefore, to the customs of the nations whom I am driving out of your way, because all these things that they have done have filled me with disgust for them" (Leviticus 20:23). God wanted to steer the Israelites as far away as possible from the sinful customs of neighboring nations.

[/i]

[i]
There is no denying, however, that Islam does promote violence and this is made explicitly clear time and time again. For examples of this you can refer to my post on women adulterers being stoned, which is legal according to Sharia. The same is applied to the execution and/or corporeal punishment homosexuals suffer simply because they were caught having sexual relations with a member of the same-sex.[/i]

What the hell?

[HisChildForever]

This thread is not about the Old Testament. Please create a new thread or post any further questions in Q&A.

[Hassan]

[quote name='HisChildForever' date='27 November 2009 - 02:18 AM' timestamp='1259306327' post='2010175']
This thread is not about the Old Testament. Please create a new thread or post any further questions in Q&A.
[/quote]


This is directly related to your claim that the existence in the religious' texts of mandates to kill adulterers and homosexuals is proof that Islam is a monolithic faith in its promotion of violence.

It's perfectly on topic, you just don't want to address your hypocrisy on this issue. You makes excuse after excuse for the barbarism of your God and found in your texts, while saving vitriol for another faith over these same matters.