Nihil Obstat Posted November 21, 2009 Author Share Posted November 21, 2009 Revised maybe, or clarified. I think maybe it's a reaction to the extremes, which of course can be extreme in itself. It expresses how a lot of people feel though, I know that much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Archaeology cat Posted November 21, 2009 Share Posted November 21, 2009 Is there a link? BroAdam, I saw it more as a reaction to a youth rally that does the things he mentions. While of course emotion isn't bad, and of course we have strong emotions at our conversion and other times, but one's faith cannot be based upon emotion, which is what I thought the author was trying to say. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Adam Posted November 21, 2009 Share Posted November 21, 2009 [quote name='Archaeology cat' date='21 November 2009 - 03:31 AM' timestamp='1258788676' post='2006817'] Is there a link? BroAdam, I saw it more as a reaction to a youth rally that does the things he mentions. While of course emotion isn't bad, and of course we have strong emotions at our conversion and other times, but one's faith cannot be based upon emotion, which is what I thought the author was trying to say. [/quote] Right, which is why I mentioned that in my explanation, but the author is going beyond that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Adam Posted November 21, 2009 Share Posted November 21, 2009 [quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='21 November 2009 - 03:03 AM' timestamp='1258787024' post='2006798'] Revised maybe, or clarified. I think maybe it's a reaction to the extremes, which of course can be extreme in itself. It expresses how a lot of people feel though, I know that much. [/quote] I can understand that people feel that way, but NLM holds a lot of clout with a whole lot of people and they need to be much more careful in their presentations to educate those who feel that way. There are youth rallies based on fluf and other things that need to be reformed, but the author is painting with a very broad brush and implicates the best youth ministries in the country with his article, along with any less than wholesome stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted November 21, 2009 Author Share Posted November 21, 2009 [quote name='Brother Adam' date='21 November 2009 - 01:55 AM' timestamp='1258790109' post='2006822'] I can understand that people feel that way, but NLM holds a lot of clout with a whole lot of people and they need to be much more careful in their presentations to educate those who feel that way. There are youth rallies based on fluf and other things that need to be reformed, but the author is painting with a very broad brush and implicates the best youth ministries in the country with his article, along with any less than wholesome stuff. [/quote] Yea, I understand what you're saying. He did mention though, and I think it's worth noting, that in his opinion Catholicism just doesn't fit very well with these rallies and all that. So in his opinion not only does it tend to be inappropriate, it's also fairly ineffective as well, more ineffective than with your run of the mill Protestant megaChurch. What would you say about that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sacredheartandbloodofjesus Posted November 21, 2009 Share Posted November 21, 2009 [quote name='Resurrexi' date='21 November 2009 - 12:29 AM' timestamp='1258781352' post='2006749'] I thought Benedict XVI's comparison of charismatic worship to the cult of Dionysus was particularly apt. [/quote] Where did you get the idea he was comparing the Charismatic movement with the cultic worship of dionysus?? He was condemning the abuse of charismatic worship which isnt even charismatic worship its emotionalism. [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sPpGEqlGafs[/media] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sacredheartandbloodofjesus Posted November 21, 2009 Share Posted November 21, 2009 [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bPlqJVu7BCc[/media] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimR-OCDS Posted November 21, 2009 Share Posted November 21, 2009 I was brought back to the Church through the Charismatic movement back in 1975. Of course this was the early stages of the movement in my part of the USA. I was quickly drawn towards contemplative prayer, so my life as a Catholic Charismatic, was only about three years. From the article, the author describes things I never experienced in the Charismatic movement, but then, perhaps its changed since I left. Also, Pope Benedict XVI makes no mention of the Charismatic movement, but abuses in Mass in general. There was a trend in Europe, where they were incorporating hard rock music in the Mass. Perhaps Pope Benedict is referring to this, and not the Charismatic movement? The title and tone of the article seems off base. Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted November 21, 2009 Author Share Posted November 21, 2009 (edited) You know, it's pretty easy to send off a quick email to Mr. Tucker. Anyone need me to link then to the site with his email address? I bet he'd welcome feedback if he's legitimately being too harsh. Edited November 21, 2009 by Nihil Obstat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeffpugh Posted November 22, 2009 Share Posted November 22, 2009 [quote name='Brother Adam' date='21 November 2009 - 01:59 AM' timestamp='1258786783' post='2006794'] This is the first time I have been disappointed by a NLM article. I have never been to a youth rally like the one he describes, and he is missing the fine distinctions necessary in which authentic, professionally trained catechists are drawing youth by the thousands into a deep, lasting relationship with Christ and His Church. And yes, those do take place through youth rallies. I am also pretty sure the Pope Benedict quote is ripped out of context, but there is no source for me to track it down. Emotion is not evil or bad. It is part of the conversion experience. Could you imagine being there when Peter first preached the Gospel in Acts 2? Could you imagine interviewing the new converts? Would have what they experienced affected their emotions? It affected the very core of their beings, so naturally it would have affected something so extrinsic as their emotions. The Catholic Church finds truth in the middle of extremes. Between faith alone and pelagainism we have James 2:24. Between despair and presumption we have hope, and so on. Between the extremes of ultra-traditionalism and progressive liberalism we have authentic Catholicism. Real youth rallies lead by faithful Catholic groups draw teens from where they are and call them to conversion and then to a deeper spirituality. If you expect a 15 year old to sit quietly before the Lord in adoration for an hour before you tell him that Jesus does, in fact, love him, your crazy. There is a natural progression to the spiritual life that the saints and the Church has told us takes place. Before we can reach transformative union we must walk through the purgative way. Those big name speakers, Christian rock bands, and praise and worship groups when used appropriately serve as a great means of drawing teens and adults in and transforming their lives. Those things aren't an end, and only when they are made to be the end do we run into problems and disillusionment. This article needs to be rescinded and rewritten. [/quote] I do not see anything wrong with the article. He definitely didn't take the Pope's words out of context. I've read the document he's referring to. He relates Dionysian and Apollian worship to the musical styles. Besides, the article was more than what you're saying here. Read it again and try not to get hung up on the fact there was some smack talked about hypothetical youth rallies or rallies of the past. I've been to some. There's some merit, but I notice a lot of emotionfest and noise. [quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='21 November 2009 - 11:53 AM' timestamp='1258822395' post='2006883'] Yea, I understand what you're saying. He did mention though, and I think it's worth noting, that in his opinion Catholicism just doesn't fit very well with these rallies and all that. So in his opinion not only does it tend to be inappropriate, it's also fairly ineffective as well, more ineffective than with your run of the mill Protestant megaChurch. What would you say about that? [/quote] This. I think the pinnacle of the article is saying how the Catholic faith is in its entirety is uncompromisable. Re-packaging it is essentially giving part of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeffpugh Posted November 22, 2009 Share Posted November 22, 2009 http://www.newliturgicalmovement.org/2009/11/how-should-catholics-market-catholicism.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeffpugh Posted November 22, 2009 Share Posted November 22, 2009 [quote name='JimR-OCDS' date='21 November 2009 - 02:42 PM' timestamp='1258832545' post='2006960'] I was brought back to the Church through the Charismatic movement back in 1975. Of course this was the early stages of the movement in my part of the USA. I was quickly drawn towards contemplative prayer, so my life as a Catholic Charismatic, was only about three years. From the article, the author describes things I never experienced in the Charismatic movement, but then, perhaps its changed since I left. Also, Pope Benedict XVI makes no mention of the Charismatic movement, but abuses in Mass in general. There was a trend in Europe, where they were incorporating hard rock music in the Mass. Perhaps Pope Benedict is referring to this, and not the Charismatic movement? The title and tone of the article seems off base. Jim [/quote] (sorry to triple post...) You should share your experience in the charismatic thread that was just started. I'd be interested in hearing it as well as others Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philothea Posted November 23, 2009 Share Posted November 23, 2009 It occurs to me that the kinds of rallies described make a lot more sense in the context of OSAS. For Protestants who believe in it, you only need one emotional experience to get you to make a commitment. So it's important to have big, dramatic, moving performances to get people to take the leap. And then, afterwards, you're all saved and good, everything's fine, but there's not a whole lot to [i]do[/i]. Going to entertaining Christian-y stuff where you can relive the whole exciting experience over makes sense. (At least as much sense as OSAS makes, which isn't a lot, but that's a different issue.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted November 23, 2009 Author Share Posted November 23, 2009 [quote name='philothea' date='23 November 2009 - 12:49 PM' timestamp='1259002180' post='2007981'] It occurs to me that the kinds of rallies described make a lot more sense in the context of OSAS. For Protestants who believe in it, you only need one emotional experience to get you to make a commitment. So it's important to have big, dramatic, moving performances to get people to take the leap. And then, afterwards, you're all saved and good, everything's fine, but there's not a whole lot to [i]do[/i]. Going to entertaining Christian-y stuff where you can relive the whole exciting experience over makes sense. (At least as much sense as OSAS makes, which isn't a lot, but that's a different issue.) [/quote] I agree. In my personal observations, a large segment of the 'born again' mentality involves one big emotional experience leading to accepting Jesus, followed by not a heck of a lot in terms of commitment. Maybe they'll finally kick a drug addiction or alcoholism or something, but this is an exterior thing. What's really changing? Is the mentality drastically transformed? I'm not sure. More importantly, I don't think it occurs to [many of] them that this is not as it should be. It's fine to say "I've accepted Jesus as my personal Lord and Saviour", and it's fine to go to a youth group or listen to some inspirational sermons, but a lot of it is about what you do and how it makes you feel. In that sense, it seems lot like just finding a new exciting hobby. I'm rambling a bit; my thoughts on this aren't very organized. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeffpugh Posted November 24, 2009 Share Posted November 24, 2009 Iunno. I think you have something going there. There are people out there who take it as a hobby. Sometimes, an obsessive hobby. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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