Deserving Of Death Penalty?

[rkwright]

Hischild, what do you personally do with the current CCC's teaching on capital punishment?

[HisChildForever]

I agree with it.

[Anomaly]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='23 November 2009 - 04:17 PM' timestamp='1259007457' post='2008055']
So what exactly are you looking for then? Why are you angry about what we say, when really, you can't say anything different? All you can offer to that family is "your 9 year old daughter is now oblivion." (If that isn't your belief, I sincerely apologize.)

Yea, there's a lot about existence that really smells of elderberries. We believe that there's more to it, and you don't. Your worldview is every bit as empty as you claim ours is, except the difference is that we don't actually believe it to be empty at all. Do you really have a problem with that?[/quote]You aren't accurate on my world view and I've not offered an alternative. I'm challenging the logic of what the professed Catholics are saying here.

Many of the Catholics here are professing an obligation of mercy to the perpetrators, and giving little thought to the living victims and the responsibility of the killers. This quickly turned into a debate about whether or not the Death Penalty is allowable. That's kinda funny considering how many sins required death in the bible. What moral principle has changed that mercy and justice first goes to the wrong-doer before the wrong can expect any justice? Justice for the wronged does not mean it's vengence. God will send someone to hell for eternity for masturbating but we're supposed to preclude punishment to a 15 year old stone cold killer?

Edited November 23, 2009 by Anomaly

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='rkwright' date='23 November 2009 - 04:43 PM' timestamp='1259012591' post='2008104']
Hischild, what do you personally do with the current CCC's teaching on capital punishment?
[/quote]

Catholics should also understand part of the CCC's 'teaching' on capital punishment, is John Paul II's pastoral opinion.

[Winchester]

Here's the thing, kid:

You've looked around for something to beesh about and chosen the church. You're going to interpret everything according to that worldview. Nothing will be taken in its entirety, but only those parts which suit your adolescent anger. You've decided to cheapen doctrines to suit your purposes and so any response to you will be met with the same infantile complaints. You know damned well that the teachings around condemnation and judging, you understand the limits of human knowledge, but you've decided to make god your enemy. There are a wealth of sites that will parrot your childishness and I think you might find a little more peace of mind in those places.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Anomaly' date='23 November 2009 - 11:49 AM' timestamp='1259002159' post='2007980']
Really now? Was she baptized? Was she Catholic? What did her parents teach her about God? What religion did she belong to? Did failures of her parents condemen her to hell? After all, she was 9, not 4. What about the torment her parents are going through right now.[/quote]
Baptism is the ordinary means for achieving communion with God, but it is by no means the only way. I have written about this topic before, so do a search using the word "limbo" and my screen name, and you will find plenty of posts where I have addressed this issue.

[quote name='Anomaly' date='23 November 2009 - 11:49 AM' timestamp='1259002159' post='2007980']I don't want to sound completely un-symptathatic or lacking in empathy, Apo, but I've got the same sort of tragic life experiences personally and in my family as well. [/quote]
The difference between us is in how we respond to those trials. When I broke my back and was told I would never walk again, I did not wallow in self-pity, nor did I attack God; instead, I responded with faith, trusting in the Lord that no matter what happened to me I would still find a purpose for my life. When I was diagnosed with an incurable degenerative disease of the retina in 1999, and was told that I will eventually go blind, I did not say . . . "Oh, how evil God is to have allowed this to happen to me." No, I responded with faith, trusting that in all my afflictions He will never leave me alone, and that I will always find comfort in His presence. And similarly, when I contracted viral encephalitis in 2007, which nearly killed me, and which left me with partial paralysis on the left side of my body and with constant pain in my extremities, I did not become angry with God, nor did I blame Him for the things that I am suffering . . . no, I knew that He was there with me, comforting me, and giving me the strength to go on. You can call the gift of faith a "platitude" as many times as you like, but I shall never agree with you. Faith is the miracle that has helped me throughout my life to go on in the face of hardship. How has it helped me? It has helped me to see beyond my own small world into an infinite vista in which love triumphs over any adversity by seeing the good in spite of all that may appear to be going wrong in the world, and in my life. Clearly, for whatever mysterious reason, you and I approach the world differently. You can call my way of approaching the world a platitude if you like, but I call it a response founded upon faith, hope, and love, which sees God's presence in joy and in suffering, in good times and in bad times, for He is there through it all, and He never gives up on anyone, even on those who chosen to give up on Him.

[quote name='Anomaly' date='23 November 2009 - 11:49 AM' timestamp='1259002159' post='2007980']All I've seen the Church respond with is platitudes.[/quote]
Perhaps the problem is not with the Church, but with your own myopic vision.

[quote name='Anomaly' date='23 November 2009 - 11:49 AM' timestamp='1259002159' post='2007980']No comfort, no graces, no peace, just unrelieved mental, spiritual, torture through the last shuddering breath while weak and wicked men with odd collars stand around and offer weak platitudes and warnings of oblivion. Maybe not the experience you've got, but reality none the less.[/quote]
Clearly, my experience differs from yours. My savior knows what it is like to suffer, He is not distant from pain, because He has experienced more pain than I ever will. The gift of joy that He gives those who strive for goodness (and for all the virtues), and the vision He gives to see beyond the suffering of this world, a suffering that He Himself has experienced, may be a platitude to you, but it is not to me.

[quote name='Anomaly' date='23 November 2009 - 11:49 AM' timestamp='1259002159' post='2007980'] Even Mother Thersa died in anguish and fear. Now there's love for you.[/quote]
I did not know that you were inside Mother Teresa's head at the moment of her death. She may have lived her life in anguish and fear, but I do not pretend to know what she thought or felt in the moments prior to and during her death, and nor should you. It is only because she wrote about her spiritual struggles that we can know anything at all about her life, but I do not think that she has written anything about the last moments of her life - right before and during her death.

[quote name='Anomaly' date='23 November 2009 - 11:49 AM' timestamp='1259002159' post='2007980']
So really, what comfort is God going to give the parents or gave the girl? Is it just bad luck that they grew up with Methodist grandparents or parents that didn't go to church or their uncle was one of the unfortunates that was abused by someone in the clergy (of any denomination?). Or maybe they were on the wrong end of a bet between the devil and god as the chased little creatures with a magnifying glass in the sun?[/quote]
What kind of comfort can God, who is infinitely beyond the infinite, give in consoling people, quite a lot I suppose. I know that He has consoled me in that way numerous times. But can people reject His consolation? Sure they can, because just as people can choose freely to reject Him by living a life of evil and vice, so too they can choose to reject the consolations He provides.

The most that I can do for you, is what I do for myself. Pray.

Todd

Edited November 23, 2009 by Apotheoun

[BG45]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='23 November 2009 - 07:00 PM' timestamp='1259017211' post='2008155']
*snip*
[/quote]

+1.

Something your post reminded me of, that I take solace in dark times, is that extreme suffering was good enough for the Son of God. Why then would God hold us to a better standard? Just because we follow His Son does not mean we will be immune from hardship and from suffering, quite the opposite if one takes Christ's words to heart.

[Socrates]

[quote name='Anomaly' date='23 November 2009 - 03:03 PM' timestamp='1259006598' post='2008052']
Kewl. So that's the conversation you'd have with the 9 year old's parents. How can they find meaning out of their daughter being murdered by a sociopath? Turning to religion and finding out it's too bad she wasn't Catholic?

You're exactly right. Life is hard and death is hard. Ain't nothing going to change those facts, including Catholic's Holy Mother Church, Pentacostal's turn or burn good news, Mormon's lottery for 144k luckies, or the specific flavor of Baptist. It's True that placebo's aren't really ineffective if you believe they work.
[/quote]
Christianity (real Christianity, not the fluffy Christianity-Lite substitute) fully acknowledges the reality of evil and the amount of grief and suffering it brings into the world. If evil and sin wasn't such a real and serious matter, Christ's mission would make no sense.
As somebody once put it, Jesus isn't a "divine errand boy" who runs out to thwart every killer and rapist before they can commit an evil act. God gives men on earth free will, which includes the power to do evil, and all that entails.

Justice will be meted out in eternity.

Yeah, of course if you don't believe in God and eternity and heaven and hell, it's all very arbitrary and cruel and pointless, but that's begging the question.

Sure, you can scoff and mock those beliefs all day long, but it's rather odd to criticize Christianity for not offering sufficient comfort.
The most comfort atheism can offer is "Too bad, get over it."

But if that's what you believe, what's the point of going on here and taking it out on Catholics/Christians?
Railing against a non-existent God seems a rather bizarre use of one's time.

Edited November 24, 2009 by Socrates

[Anomaly]

I never claimed to be an atheist. I just pointed out the hypoocrasy of supposed christian compassion that excludes the death penalty and completly ignores effective compassion for the victims.

The fact that phlisophy is not limited to believers in a God. There's also the idea of 'karma' that wicked people should eventually earn retribution here, even if there isn't perfect justice.

But instead of defending your position, it's easier to call me adolescent, a church hater, or some other convenient sterotype you can dismiss.

[Aloysius]

In summation of the actual topic rather than the lobbing of accusations about each other's motives for their positions, the Church's position remains that they do indeed deserve the death penalty and to not give it to them would be an act of mercy towards them. some say we definitely must offer them that mercy, some say that we shouldn't.

Anomaly, would you agree that by not giving them the death penalty it would be an act of mercy towards them? If so, since you stand with the victims' families in the matter, do you think it is virtuous when the victims' families themselves wish to show the perpetrator that type of mercy? You claim to stand with the victims' families to say that there is no consolation in Christian "platitudes", but is it not amazing when the victims' families do find solace in those "platitudes"? I find it to be incredibly inspiring and virtuous when such victims' families wish to extend mercy to the perpetrators, when they do not allow tragedy to destroy their hope and joy in God.

that, of course, avoids the question of whether such mercy is obligatory (which is a question which remains open for debate amongst Catholics), but can anyone here, especially when it is the victims' families that wish to offer that mercy, deny that it is amazingly virtuous when it is offered?

[Winchester]

[quote name='Anomaly' date='23 November 2009 - 08:52 PM' timestamp='1259027522' post='2008278']
I never claimed to be an atheist. I just pointed out the hypoocrasy of supposed christian compassion that excludes the death penalty and completly ignores effective compassion for the victims.
[/quote]
Hypocrisy is false piety. You claim you pointed out what is a contradiction. It isn't. You've merely framed a belief (which is not binding upon the faithful) in a certain light because of your personal issues.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Winchester' date='23 November 2009 - 07:44 PM' timestamp='1259030647' post='2008320']
. . . You've merely framed a belief ([b]which is not binding upon the faithful[/b]) in a certain light because of your personal issues.
[/quote]
I agree.

Catholics are free to argue about the application of the death penalty in particular cases, but they are not free to say that the use of the death penalty is immoral, because such a statement would be contrary to scripture and tradition.

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='23 November 2009 - 10:06 PM' timestamp='1259031977' post='2008340']
I agree.

Catholics are free to argue about the application of the death penalty in particular cases, but they are not free to say that the use of the death penalty is immoral, because such a statement would be contrary to scripture and tradition.
[/quote]

Agreed.

[Anomaly]

Now that we've got 'that' cleared up. What about acts deserving of the death penalty?
At one time the Catholic Church taught that certain acts "earn" death. Adultry, blasphamy, murder, etc., require execution at human's hands. Back then, people were trusted to make life and death judgements. Now, with greater knowledge, we aren't capable of making the same judgement? Or, is the purpose of execution not an earned punishment but merely self-defense?

Given these two murders, it can be argued the father does not pose a threat generally to society, he may of killed out of a sense of obligation to mete punishment to someone who comitted a grave act of evil. Whereas the teenage girl killed a random innocent merely to experience an evil fantasy.

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='Anomaly' date='24 November 2009 - 06:50 AM' timestamp='1259063400' post='2008497']
it can be argued the father does not pose a threat generally to society, he may of killed out of a sense of obligation to mete punishment to someone who comitted a grave act of evil.
[/quote]

He came to the conclusion, by himself, that his teenage son "deserved" to die. He also humiliated his son by forcing him to undress, before he carried out the execution. That sounds to me like vengeance and like "an eye for an eye." Inmates who are put to death are not made to endure the crime they committed perform on them - yes, if they murder someone they will be killed, but if they slaughter a room full of people with an axe, they themselves are not slaughtered with an axe (I hope you get what I am saying here). Anyway, it is entirely possible that if the father were pushed into another fit of rage, he would behave the same way he did when he found out what his teenage son was guilty of.