Deserving Of Death Penalty?

[King's Rook's Pawn]

[quote name='HisChildForever' date='21 November 2009 - 11:43 PM' timestamp='1258861426' post='2007166']
Anyone who is in college, or who has graduated college, should be offended by this comment. That parchment symbolizes all the hard work an individual has put towards his or her education. It represents an individual's knowledge. How dare you criticize that.
[/quote]

I have a master's degree, and I'm not offended. Personally, I found that the only thing my parchment symbolized was the ability to parrot what my professors wanted to hear.

I find appeals to expertise annoying. Healthy intellectual discourse requires a free, dynamic, and competitive marketplace of ideas. Ivory towerism and arguments from authority stifle that competition.

[quote name='HisChildForever' date='21 November 2009 - 11:56 PM' timestamp='1258862167' post='2007167']
What an absolutely ridiculous comparison. You liken the death penalty to a "hideous" punishment, and you compare it to barbarically decapitating an individual - and displaying the severed head to the public? How disgustingly sick. Perhaps you should focus on your argument, as opposed to your exaggerated emotional comments.[/quote]

First of all, this was a response to your argument in favor of [i]incarceration[/i] for [i]deterrence[/i]. Again, I was taking the argument to its logical conclusion. All the hideous punishments in history could be justified by this argument.

And here you once again apply your personal, arbitrary, subjective standards of "hideousness." Some of us may disagree. I consider lethal injection hideous and barbaric, perhaps even more so that public decapitation because it's deliberately hidden, sugar-coated, and sanitized, and therefore dishonest. I also find the modern prison system and the modern justice system, in general, barbaric. On the other hand a 15th century Englishman would not have found burning at the stake, drawing and quartering, or disembowelment barbaric. It's subjective and that's my problem with utilitarian arguments like "deterrence." Let's focus squarely on peoples' natural rights.

[quote]No, you are interested in overthrowing the entire criminal justice system and reestablishing it based on your fantasized ideal.[/quote]

And you want to maintain an unjust and, yes, barbaric status quo.

[quote]Oh, and when a person violates the rights of another person, they basically give their rights away. As Knight so eloquently quoted,

[b]Pope Pius XII: "When it is a question of the execution of a man condemned to death it is then reserved to the public power to deprive the condemned of the benefit of life, in expiation of his fault, [u]when already, by his fault, he has dispossessed himself of the right to live."[/u] 9/14/52.[/b][/quote]

Killing someone in self-defense is just, but killing someone when there is absolutely no need is unjust. It does nothing to correct the injustice done to the victim. Insofar, as Pope Pius XII means what you think it means, I just disagree with him. I agree with Pope John Paul II, whom I've already quoted twice.

[quote]Do you honestly believe that after paying the victim compensation, the perpetrator is going to see the error of his or her ways? Do you really think that is enough to rehabilitate the perpetrator?[/quote]

Rehabilitation's a job for the confessional booth, not some guys with guns in government-issued costumes. Secular legal enforcers should have zero authority to do anything beyond enforcing the claims of actual victims of actual aggression and, perhaps, confining truly dangerous individuals. Anything beyond is, itself, aggressive.

[quote]Rehabilitation is another function of the justice system. The types of rehabilitation include, but are not limited to: counseling, education, skills training, religious services. While incarceration is meant to keep an offender away from society, and is meant to serve justice, and is supposed to promote deterrence, it is also about changing that offender into a productive and healthy member of society.[/quote]

You just showed me a video that excellently demonstrates what the horrible, hideous, disastrous failure of the brutal, barbaric, and immensely bloated US prison-industrial complex. Now here you are praising it. So on the list of excuses and rationalizations for caging non-dangerous individuals and sometimes executing them, we have "deterrence," "rehabilitation," satisfying some primitive standard of vendetta "justice"...anything else? It doesn't change a fact that's right in front of our faces: killing or engaging people who are not otherwise dangerous is wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong.

[quote]The safety of society at large is the greatest concern.[/quote]

And yet here you are justifying the prison-industrial complex, which doesn't rehabilitate people. Indeed it has the potential to turn non-violent people, like drug addicts, into violent people while they're trapped in those dehumanizing, totalitarian hellholes.

Now we have more people per capita imprisoned than any other country on Earth; are we safer than any other country on Earth? The drug war, the death penalty, and the prison-industrial complex are unjust, abysmal failures that should be abolished, even though it would mean a great loss of business for prosecutors, prison wardens, and cops.

[King's Rook's Pawn]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='22 November 2009 - 12:26 AM' timestamp='1258864013' post='2007174']
It is not about "benefits" to the family of the murdered victim; instead, it is about the just rewards for a heinous act performed against both God and man.[/quote]

This sort of primitive thinking is a recipe for brutality. There's no point in beating up a criminal just for the sake of beating him up..."Well, he got what was comin' to him." What kind of mentality is that?

[quote]The objective good is the punishment of the criminal with a penalty commensurate with his crime[/quote]

The commensurate penalty of the crime is whatever it takes to compensate the victim for harm done to him. There's no legal crime beyond that. There's no justice in "an eye for an eye." That's magical thinking.

[King's Rook's Pawn]

[quote name='BG45' date='22 November 2009 - 01:21 AM' timestamp='1258867292' post='2007185']
Hmm, some might disagree, including the staff members and inmates alike who were killed during the Lucasville riot.[/quote]

Here we go again...I totally accept that the modern prison system is a disastrous, barbaric, dangerous, criminal-making failure. The answer is [i]not[/i] to kill all the prisoners.

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='King's Rook's Pawn' date='22 November 2009 - 02:45 PM' timestamp='1258919156' post='2007346']
Rehabilitation's a job for the confessional booth, not some guys with guns in government-issued costumes. Secular legal enforcers should have zero authority to do anything beyond enforcing the claims of actual victims of actual aggression and, perhaps, confining truly dangerous individuals. Anything beyond is, itself, aggressive.
[/quote]

Rehabilitation is not carried out by "some guys in government-issued costumes" and to say so shows an extreme amount of ignorance on your part. Psychologists, psychiatrists, counselors, and religious ministers provide mental health rehabilitation for inmates. In fact, corrections mental health counselor is one of the career options I am pursuing. As to your statement that "rehabilitation's a job for the confessional booth," allow me to quote John Paul II in his letter “To the Cardinal Major Penitentiary” -

[b]“One would not be justified, however, in wanting to transform the sacrament of Penance into psychoanalysis or psychotherapy. The confessional is not and cannot be an alternative to the psychoanalyst's or psychotherapist's office. Nor can one expect the sacrament of Penance to heal truly pathological conditions. The confessor is not a healer or a physician in the technical sense of the term; in fact, if the condition of the penitent seems to require medical care, the confessor should not deal with the matter himself, but should send the penitent to competent and honest professionals.”[/b]

Do you agree with Pope John Paul II again?

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='King's Rook's Pawn' date='22 November 2009 - 12:55 PM' timestamp='1258919734' post='2007353']
This sort of primitive thinking is a recipe for brutality. There's no point in beating up a criminal just for the sake of beating him up..."Well, he got what was comin' to him." What kind of mentality is that?[/quote]
In other words, you disagree with Genesis 9:6. Such is life in a relativistic age.

[quote name='King's Rook's Pawn' date='22 November 2009 - 12:55 PM' timestamp='1258919734' post='2007353']
The commensurate penalty of the crime is whatever it takes to compensate the victim for harm done to him. There's no legal crime beyond that. There's no justice in "an eye for an eye." That's magical thinking.
[/quote]
It is the duty of the state to mete out justice, while no one may privately act in such a way.

Edited November 22, 2009 by Apotheoun

[King's Rook's Pawn]

[quote name='Anomaly' date='22 November 2009 - 09:54 AM' timestamp='1258898071' post='2007267']
It's obvious to me you've never visited prison or know any convicted felons well....[/quote]

I don't see your point. The prison system is a horrific institution that breaks up families, incarcerates people for victimless crimes, and turns people into criminals while they're inside, all on the backs of the taxpayers, including the victims of actual criminals. Let's start by releasing the 20% of the prison population in there for nonviolent drug crimes. Those people should get medical help and be allowed to be productive members of society. Locking them in dungeons helps [i]no one[/i] other than wardens, judges, DAs and DEA officers.

[quote]Under voluntaryism if you steal $1,000 and you must forfeit $1,000, isn't that a buck for a buck?[/quote]

The point is that it compensates the victim. An-eye-for-an-eye doesn't compensate the victim or help him in anyway, other than to give him a primitive thrill of vengeance.

[quote]What if you rape or kill someone in a fit of rage, but aren't likely to get that angry again.[/quote]

In my voluntary, free market world, each case would have to be handled on an individual basis between the accused, the accuser or his next-of-kin, and a mutually arbitrator or mediator. Doubtless, a voluntary society would come up with ways to nullify truly dangerous people.

One speculation I had was that compensation for damages would be monetary, however, it may be that in cases of murder, the [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weregild"]weregild[/url] would be so high that it would mean the murderer would have to have all his property liquidated and still be in debt bondage to the victim's next-of-kin, perhaps for life. That would likely mean the perpetrator, being a bonded laborer, would be kept safely under surveillance, not necessarily by the victim's next-of-kin himself, but perhaps on a labor camp. That's just my personal speculation, and you can disagree with it. The larger point is that in a free society, competing private judges, juries, and arbitration systems would likely come up with all kinds of means for satisfactorily compensating victims for damages. Humans beings don't require monopolistic top-down controls; in a voluntary and non-aggressive society they have a wonderful tendency to create spontaneous order. Just look at the Internet.

Why does Bernie Madoff need to be in prison? He's not likely to go hog wild and kill anyone with a machete. Why can't he be on the outside working to compensate his victims?

[quote]you don't believe in consequences as being a deterent.[/quote]

A much more useful deterrent than state-enforced spankings is the deterrent of social and economic ostracization, which would be another vitally important way for a free society to impose law and order. Who would sign contracts with a known contract-breaker? It's much like how creditors are less likely to lend to a person with a known bad credit history or at least charge more, or how insurers will charge higher premiums for bad risks. Actions do have consequences even outside typical retaliatory justice.

[quote]Stealing is like an intrest free loan... [/quote]

If you're a private, competing arbitrator in my free market, voluntary society, you can consider granting victims of theft "interest" of some sort.

[quote]Where was Jesus for the little 9 year old girl and her parents?[/quote]

Well, God could have controlled the teenager's mind, thereby alienating her from her will and turning her into a mental slave. But should He have?

[HisChildForever]

The bottom line is that the Church does not rule out the use of the death penalty.

[HisChildForever]

King, if you were in charge of the justice system (God help us all), would you allow a rapist to stay on the street so long as he payed reparations to the victim?

[King's Rook's Pawn]

[quote name='HisChildForever' date='22 November 2009 - 04:36 PM' timestamp='1258922219' post='2007380']
Rehabilitation is not carried out by "some guys in government-issued costumes" and to say so shows an extreme amount of ignorance on your part. Psychologists, psychiatrists, counselors, and religious ministers provide mental health rehabilitation for inmates. In fact, corrections mental health counselor is one of the career options I am pursuing.[/quote]

It's not the role of a justice enforcers to do anything but enforce justice. If someone wants to go to a psychologist, let him go. There's no reason to impose it on him. All this stuff sounds like more social engineering and on my tax dollars too. The whole "corrections" system is a socially destructive statist scam that destroys families, wreaks suffering on the nonviolent, and turn noncriminals into criminals. Crime is its bread-and-butter, after all. If I may be so bold, I think you should become a defense attorney and work to protect people from this failed and unjust system.

[quote]As to your statement that "rehabilitation's a job for the confessional booth," allow me to quote John Paul II in his letter “To the Cardinal Major Penitentiary” -

[b]“One would not be justified, however, in wanting to transform the sacrament of Penance into psychoanalysis or psychotherapy. The confessional is not and cannot be an alternative to the psychoanalyst's or psychotherapist's office. Nor can one expect the sacrament of Penance to heal truly pathological conditions. The confessor is not a healer or a physician in the technical sense of the term; in fact, if the condition of the penitent seems to require medical care, the confessor should not deal with the matter himself, but should send the penitent to competent and honest professionals.”[/b]
[/quote]

I guess I was thinking true rehabilitation, as in repentance. But if a person wishes to see a shrink or a counselor to help them solve a problem, they're entitled; it still is no justification for the prison-industrial complex.

[King's Rook's Pawn]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='22 November 2009 - 04:39 PM' timestamp='1258922375' post='2007383']In other words, you disagree with Genesis 9:6. Such is life in a relativistic age.

It is the duty of the state to mete out justice, while no one may privately act in such a way.[/quote]

What's more relativistic then saying the some arbitrary gang of people with badges and banners have authority to slaughter other individuals. What imbues them with that right?

[King's Rook's Pawn]

[quote name='HisChildForever' date='22 November 2009 - 04:58 PM' timestamp='1258923532' post='2007393']
The bottom line is that the Church does not rule out the use of the death penalty.
[/quote]

She doesn't rule it in either; she doesn't compel it to ever be done or mandate that anyone has to accept it in this or that circumstance. I don't not see any circumstances in which I find it acceptable in our society. But, for example, if you and George and Fred and Wilhelmina were shipwrecked on an island and you saw George killing Fred in his asleep, I would accept you executing George to protect yourself and Wilhelmina.

[quote]
King, if you were in charge of the justice system (God help us all), would you allow a rapist to stay on the street so long as he payed reparations to the victim?[/quote]

If I were in charge of a justice system, I would resign. In the end, these things should be decided by competing individuals and institutions in a free and voluntary society, not by a monopolistic, enforced, territorial "system." Also, in a free and voluntary society, all streets would be owned by private individuals; there would be none I could allow him on without the consent of the owner.

Actually, I already said that truly dangerous individuals can be confined somehow. This debate was originally about the death penalty. You shifted to a debate of prisons. I simply argued that the prison system today goes far beyond any reasonable purpose for imprisonment today. Perpetrators of victimless crimes should be freed at the very least. And the Bernie Madoffs who committed actual crimes but still present no real threat "on the streets" should be, perhaps, put under surveillance simply to ensure that they were working to recuperate their victims' losses as much as possible.

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='King's Rook's Pawn' date='22 November 2009 - 04:13 PM' timestamp='1258924395' post='2007400']
What's more relativistic then saying the some arbitrary gang of people with badges and banners have authority to slaughter other individuals. What imbues them with that right?
[/quote]

Not what, but who. God. God has given the State the authority.

[b] Legitimate defense can be not only a right but a grave duty for one who is responsible for the lives of others. The defense of the common good requires that an unjust aggressor be rendered unable to cause harm. For this reason, [u]those who legitimately hold authority also have the right to use arms to repel aggressors against the civil community entrusted to their responsibility.[/u] (CCC 2265)[/b]

Who has given them the authority but God?

[King's Rook's Pawn]

[quote name='HisChildForever' date='22 November 2009 - 05:32 PM' timestamp='1258925541' post='2007411']
Not what, but who. God. God has given the State the authority.

[b] Legitimate defense can be not only a right but a grave duty for one who is responsible for the lives of others. The defense of the common good requires that an unjust aggressor be rendered unable to cause harm. For this reason, [u]those who legitimately hold authority also have the right to use arms to repel aggressors against the civil community entrusted to their responsibility.[/u] (CCC 2265)[/b]

Who has given them the authority but God?
[/quote]

Well, I've already been through all this on [url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=99553&view=&hl=&fromsearch=1"]the anarchy thread[/url].

[HisChildForever]

Thanks, I'll look it over when I can.

[BG45]

[quote name='King's Rook's Pawn' date='22 November 2009 - 04:00 PM' timestamp='1258920028' post='2007359']
Here we go again...I totally accept that the modern prison system is a disastrous, barbaric, dangerous, criminal-making failure. The answer is [i]not[/i] to kill all the prisoners.
[/quote]

I never said that it was however.