Deserving Of Death Penalty?

[King's Rook's Pawn]

[quote name='Norseman82' date='21 November 2009 - 03:23 PM' timestamp='1258831391' post='2006951']
If YOU want to take that risk you can do it on your own, but do not drag down the rest of innocent society down with you.
[/quote]

No, I can't do it on my own because you're saying I have to accept living under a state with the death penalty, due to your (irrational) fear of people in maximum security prisons. You're far, far more likely to get hit by a car then killed by an escaped convict of any sort. Do you advocate the prohibition of cars? Do you accuse those who oppose the prohibition of cars to be "dragging down the rest of innocent society"? And if you execute everybody who poses a risk to everybody else, there'd be no one left alive, including you.

[KnightofChrist]

St. Augustine: "The same divine law which forbids the killing of a human being allows certain exceptions. Since the agent of authority is but a sword in the hand, and is not responsible for the killing, it is in no way contrary to the commandment "Thou shalt not kill", for the representative of the State's authority to put criminals to death, according to the Law or the rule of rational justice." The City of God, Book 1, Chapter 21


St. Thomas Aquinas finds all biblical interpretations against executions "frivolous", citing Exodus 22:18, "wrongdoers thou shalt not suffer to live". Unequivocally, he states," The civil rulers execute, justly and sinlessly, pestiferous men in order to protect the peace of the state." (Summa Contra Gentiles, III, 146


St. Thomas Aquinas: "The fact that the evil, as long as they live, can be corrected from their errors does not prohibit the fact that they may be justly executed, for the danger which threatens from their way of life is greater and more certain than the good which may be expected from their improvement. They also have at that critical point of death the opportunity to be converted to God through repentance. And if they are so stubborn that even at the point of death their heart does not draw back from evil, it is possible to make a highly probable judgement that they would never come away from evil to the right use of their powers." Summa Contra Gentiles, Book III, 146.

Saints Thomas Aquinas and Augustine. In addition to the required punishment for murder and the deterrence standards, both Saints find that executing murderers is also an act of charity and mercy. Saint Augustine confirms that " . . . inflicting capital punishment . . . protects those who are undergoing capital punishment from the harm they may suffer . . . through increased sinning which might continue if their life went on." (On the Lord's Sermon, 1.20.63-64.) Saint Thomas Aquinas finds that " . . . the death inflicted by the judge profits the sinner, if he be converted, unto the expiation of his crime; and, if he be not converted, it profits so as to put an end to the sin, because the sinner is thus deprived of the power to sin anymore." (Summa Theologica, II-II, 25, 6 ad 2.)

Pope Pius XII: "When it is a question of the execution of a man condemned to death it is then reserved to the public power to deprive the condemned of the benefit of life, in expiation of his fault, when already, by his fault, he has dispossessed himself of the right to live." 9/14/52.

Saint Pope Pius V: "The just use of (executions), far from involving the crime of murder, is an act of paramount obedience to this (Fifth) Commandment which prohibits murder." "The Roman Catechism of the Council of Trent" (1566).

St. Thomas Aquinas: "If a man is a danger to the community, threatening it with disintegration by some wrongdoing of his, then his execution for the healing and preservation of the common good is to be commended. Only the public authority, not private persons, may licitly execute malefactors by public judgement. Men shall be sentenced to death for crimes of irreparable harm or which are particularly perverted." Summa Theologica, 11; 65-2; 66-6.

"St. Thomas Aquinas quotes a gloss of St. Jerome on Matthew 27: "As Christ became accursed of the cross for us, for our salvation He was crucified as a guilty one among the guilty." "If no crime deserves the death penalty, then it is hard to see why it was fitting that Christ be put to death for our sins and crucified among thieves." " That Christ be put to death as a guilty person, presupposes that death is a fitting punishment for those who are guilty." Prof. Michael Pakaluk, The Death Penalty: An Opposing Viewpoints Series Book, Greenhaven Press, (hereafter TDP:OVS), 1991

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='King's Rook's Pawn' date='21 November 2009 - 02:36 PM' timestamp='1258832190' post='2006958']
No, I can't do it on my own because you're saying I have to accept living under a state with the death penalty, due to your (irrational) fear of people in maximum security prisons. You're far, far more likely to get hit by a car then killed by an escaped convict of any sort. Do you advocate the prohibition of cars? Do you accuse those who oppose the prohibition of cars to be "dragging down the rest of innocent society"? And if you execute everybody who poses a risk to everybody else, there'd be no one left alive, including you.
[/quote]

No need to get feisty.

[Norseman82]

[quote name='King's Rook's Pawn' date='21 November 2009 - 02:36 PM' timestamp='1258832190' post='2006958']
No, I can't do it on my own because you're saying I have to accept living under a state with the death penalty, due to your (irrational) fear of people in maximum security prisons. You're far, far more likely to get hit by a car then killed by an escaped convict of any sort. Do you advocate the prohibition of cars? Do you accuse those who oppose the prohibition of cars to be "dragging down the rest of innocent society"? And if you execute everybody who poses a risk to everybody else, there'd be no one left alive, including you.
[/quote]

Oh please...cars in and of themselves are morally neutral, as opposed to actions that criminals do to merit the time in prison. Any person who has a functioning brain should be able to grasp this simple concept.

[img]http://wasteddomain.com/gallery/d/568-1/picard-sigh.jpg[/img]

And how do I pose a risk to society? This one I have to hear.

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='Norseman82' date='21 November 2009 - 02:48 PM' timestamp='1258832921' post='2006963']
And how do I pose a risk to society? This one I have to hear.
[/quote]

You must have hurt his feelings somehow, and therefore must be stopped. Rude!

[King's Rook's Pawn]

[quote name='HisChildForever' date='21 November 2009 - 03:34 PM' timestamp='1258832094' post='2006956']Secular society has its sense of morality, whether or not you can believe it.[/quote]

The morality of "secular society" can go hang. Secular society has justified every atrocity known to man, on the basis of its morality. You have [i]no[/i] right to throw prostitutes and drug addicts in cages a the point of a gun; it is violent and reprehensible. That is morality. I'm not arguing any more about this. This thread is about the death penalty, and I'd rather stick to that.

[quote]There is a difference between justice and vengeance. Justice is objective, vengeance is subjective.[/quote]

Right, and there's nothing just about killing people, except in self-defense or in the defense of others. In an age of maximum security prisons, you cannot reasonably argue that the death penalty is needed to defend you against prisoners.

[quote]We are not a brutal and inhumane society, which is why we do not believe in "forty lashes."[/quote]

Who says we aren't? The prison system isn't brutal and inhumane? Locking people away for victimless crimes isn't brutal and inhuman? The death penalty isn't brutal and inhumane? Cops in paramilitary garb wielding tasers isn't brutal and inhumane? Bombing civilians in Pakistan isn't brutal and inhumane? Abortion clinics aren't brutal and inhumane? Yes, our society [i]is[/i] just as brutal and inhumane as any society before it.

[quote]The reason why a McVeigh would not stab a fellow inmate but a gang member would is because a McVeigh gets sentenced to death row.[/quote]

But you're certain he would have otherwise? Do all serial killers end up stabbing their fellow inmates?

[quote]Serial killers, murderers, and rapists are in a whole different category than thieves and drug addicts.[/quote]

Why? According to whom? Are all murderers in a separate category or only some? What about accessories to murder? Who makes all these judgments?

[quote]The only problem is that it conflicts with the Church's opinion. As Knight said, you are not obligated to agree with the Church on this matter, but you are going against over 2,000 years of what the Church has taught on this matter.[/quote]

As far as I can see, my opinion dovetails far more closely with the latest teachings then you're own: "It is clear that, for these purposes to be achieved, the nature and extent of the punishment must be carefully evaluated and decided upon, and ought not go to the extreme of executing the offender except in cases of absolute necessity: in other words, when it would not be possible otherwise to defend society. Today however, as a result of steady improvements in the organization of the penal system, such cases are very rare, if not practically non-existent."

"Absolute necessity"..."when it would not be possible otherwise to defend society"..."such cases are very rare, if not practically non-existent"...I do not think your arbitrary and ill-defined standards for the death penalty match this.

[King's Rook's Pawn]

[quote name='Norseman82' date='21 November 2009 - 03:48 PM' timestamp='1258832921' post='2006963']cars in and of themselves are morally neutral, as opposed to actions that criminals do to merit the time in prison.[/quote]

But they're still dangerous. Is that not your argument: we need to execute these guys because they're dangerous? And maybe car drivers are putting people at unnecessary risk and are therefore acting immorally.

[quote]And how do I pose a risk to society? This one I have to hear.[/quote]

[i]Everyone[/i] poses some risk to society. How do you know you won't just snap one day, get a gun, and shoot up a gas station? How do you know that I won't? If we wanted to make sure that the world is absolutely safe from [i]all[/i] potential criminals, we would have to wipe out the human race.

Edited November 21, 2009 by King's Rook's Pawn

[HisChildForever]

Your "ideal" sounds like it will lead to utter chaos. Stepping away from the death penalty for a moment, deterrence is one of the functions of incarceration. Take that away, and what kind of a deterrence do you have? "If you steal a car [i]and get caught[/i] you have to pay X amount as a fee within X amount of days." How absolutely ludicrous. You really think THAT is going to reduce crime?

[quote name='King's Rook's Pawn' date='21 November 2009 - 02:57 PM' timestamp='1258833478' post='2006969']
How do you know you won't just snap one day, get a gun, and shoot up a gas station? How do you know that I won't? If we wanted to make sure that the world is absolutely safe from [i]all[/i] potential criminals, we would have to wipe out the human race.
[/quote]

Riiight, and we are the irrational ones.

[King's Rook's Pawn]

[quote name='HisChildForever' date='21 November 2009 - 04:07 PM' timestamp='1258834068' post='2006970']Your "ideal" sounds like it will lead to utter chaos. Stepping away from the death penalty for a moment, deterrence is one of the functions of incarceration. Take that away, and what kind of a deterrence do you have? "If you steal a car [i]and get caught[/i] you have to pay X amount as a fee within X amount of days." How absolutely ludicrous. You really think THAT is going to reduce crime?[/quote]

I think this is an entirely utilitarian argument: hideously punish one person to "make an example" for others? Why not just stick their heads on pikes on the Brooklyn Bridge? I guess just because we're not a "brutal and inhumane society" under you're definition. But any society that systematically violates the rights of individuals is brutal and inhumane to me. What I'm interested in is rights. Justice should be based on having the perpetrator compensate the victim for violations of the victim's rights.

Crimes are crimes because they violate the rights of the victim; the victim of a car theft therefore has the right to retaliate by demanding full compensation. He doesn't have the right to receive just compensation and then go burn down the perpetrator's house. It's unjust. Nowadays, however, victims generally don't get compensation. However, they do get to pay the taxes necessary to keep their victimizers locked in cages, thus being victimized twice. Surely there's no justice or rationality in such a system.

[quote]Riiight, and we are the irrational ones.[/quote]

I'm just taking you're own utilitarian belief in "deterring" criminals and "keeping people safe from criminals" through execution to its logical conclusion. Everyone [i]might[/i] be a dangerous criminal, do you deny that? It's no surprise this where pro-death penalty arguments lead; they are anti-life arguments.

Edited November 21, 2009 by King's Rook's Pawn

[HisChildForever]

I'm a Psych/Crim Justice student, and your posts are giving me one heart attack after another. I hope BG45 sees this thread, he's pursuing his Masters in Criminal Justice.

I'm going to work so I'll respond to this later.

Edited November 21, 2009 by HisChildForever

[King's Rook's Pawn]

[quote name='HisChildForever' date='21 November 2009 - 04:43 PM' timestamp='1258836188' post='2006979']
I'm a Psych/Crim Justice student, and your posts are giving me one heart attack after another. I hope BG45 sees this thread, he's pursuing his Masters in Criminal Justice.[/quote]

You don't need an overpriced piece of parchment to understand the difference between right and wrong.

[CatherineM]

I think if we are going to execute people, that we should do so publicly. Witnessing an execution was all it took for me.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='CatherineM' date='21 November 2009 - 04:34 PM' timestamp='1258842882' post='2007025']
I think if we are going to execute people, that we should do so publicly. Witnessing an execution was all it took for me.
[/quote]
Do you think it might turn into a big spectacle for.... sicker people?

[rkwright]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' date='21 November 2009 - 02:38 PM' timestamp='1258832314' post='2006959']
St. Augustine: "The same divine law which forbids the killing of a human being allows certain exceptions. Since the agent of authority is but a sword in the hand, and is not responsible for the killing, it is in no way contrary to the commandment "Thou shalt not kill", for the representative of the State's authority to put criminals to death, according to the Law or the rule of rational justice." The City of God, Book 1, Chapter 21


St. Thomas Aquinas finds all biblical interpretations against executions "frivolous", citing Exodus 22:18, "wrongdoers thou shalt not suffer to live". Unequivocally, he states," The civil rulers execute, justly and sinlessly, pestiferous men in order to protect the peace of the state." (Summa Contra Gentiles, III, 146


St. Thomas Aquinas: "The fact that the evil, as long as they live, can be corrected from their errors does not prohibit the fact that they may be justly executed, for the danger which threatens from their way of life is greater and more certain than the good which may be expected from their improvement. They also have at that critical point of death the opportunity to be converted to God through repentance. And if they are so stubborn that even at the point of death their heart does not draw back from evil, it is possible to make a highly probable judgement that they would never come away from evil to the right use of their powers." Summa Contra Gentiles, Book III, 146.

Saints Thomas Aquinas and Augustine. In addition to the required punishment for murder and the deterrence standards, both Saints find that executing murderers is also an act of charity and mercy. Saint Augustine confirms that " . . . inflicting capital punishment . . . protects those who are undergoing capital punishment from the harm they may suffer . . . through increased sinning which might continue if their life went on." (On the Lord's Sermon, 1.20.63-64.) Saint Thomas Aquinas finds that " . . . the death inflicted by the judge profits the sinner, if he be converted, unto the expiation of his crime; and, if he be not converted, it profits so as to put an end to the sin, because the sinner is thus deprived of the power to sin anymore." (Summa Theologica, II-II, 25, 6 ad 2.)

Pope Pius XII: "When it is a question of the execution of a man condemned to death it is then reserved to the public power to deprive the condemned of the benefit of life, in expiation of his fault, when already, by his fault, he has dispossessed himself of the right to live." 9/14/52.

Saint Pope Pius V: "The just use of (executions), far from involving the crime of murder, is an act of paramount obedience to this (Fifth) Commandment which prohibits murder." "The Roman Catechism of the Council of Trent" (1566).

St. Thomas Aquinas: "If a man is a danger to the community, threatening it with disintegration by some wrongdoing of his, then his execution for the healing and preservation of the common good is to be commended. Only the public authority, not private persons, may licitly execute malefactors by public judgement. Men shall be sentenced to death for crimes of irreparable harm or which are particularly perverted." Summa Theologica, 11; 65-2; 66-6.

"St. Thomas Aquinas quotes a gloss of St. Jerome on Matthew 27: "As Christ became accursed of the cross for us, for our salvation He was crucified as a guilty one among the guilty." "If no crime deserves the death penalty, then it is hard to see why it was fitting that Christ be put to death for our sins and crucified among thieves." " That Christ be put to death as a guilty person, presupposes that death is a fitting punishment for those who are guilty." Prof. Michael Pakaluk, The Death Penalty: An Opposing Viewpoints Series Book, Greenhaven Press, (hereafter TDP:OVS), 1991
[/quote]

As far as I understood Augustine, while he acknowledged the State's right to execute, he did preach against the state actually using it and often pleaded for criminals to not be executed.

[CatherineM]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='21 November 2009 - 04:37 PM' timestamp='1258843079' post='2007027']
Do you think it might turn into a big spectacle for.... sicker people?
[/quote]
Certainly, but I firmly believe that we are only as sick as our secrets. Women who have 3D ultrasounds are many times less likely to go through with an abortion. There is a reason your classmates want to have the right to show pictures of real abortions, it is so that those on campus can't fool themselves about what it really entails. It's the same with executions.