Fidei Defensor Posted November 20, 2009 Share Posted November 20, 2009 (edited) I am pro-choice: you have to choice to have sex, you have the choice to have a baby. You do not have the choice to terminate a pregnancy, however. You made your choice when you decided to have sex. After that, you've made the choice and have to live with it. As a biologist, I assent that from the moment of conception, the embryo is a living human being. No one should be able to decide to kill a human being, be it pre-born or post born. What I disagree with: [list] [*]the tactics of argument. I don't believe it's an effective method to throw emotionally charged around and expect to change minds. People need to be shown why an embryo or fetus is living, not accused of supporting murder. Yes, you believe what you believe. But not everyone does, regardless of how reasonable you think that belief is. Learn to deal with those differences and make better arguments around them rather than being pig-headed and repeating the same thing over and over again as if it'll make a difference the next time you say it. [*]Personhood. I embrace life as an inalienable right that should never be taken away. However, in the Catholic argument, having a soul plays a major role in the inalienable right - God granted a soul. I think more of an effort needs to be made in regards to how pro-choice persons use "personhood" as a qualifier, not for the sake of agreement but to better understand their argument in an effort to persuade them. Personhood refers to when the fetus becomes a viable member of society, rather than just a living organism that it became at conception. Usually personhood can be equated with ensoulment, which for Catholics, happens at conception. However, the secular view is usually that personhood beings when the fetus is viable outside of the womb. I DO NOT WANT TO DEBATE THIS POINT. I am just pointing it out so that you can understand the difference in opinion. Again, a useful debate is about the issues, not calling people murderers. [/list] Now everyone can know where I stand. Edited November 20, 2009 by fidei defensor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mommas_boy Posted November 20, 2009 Share Posted November 20, 2009 Fidei, I may disagree with you on many things, but I have a great deal of respect for you, and how you approached this thread. Very well done, sir. MB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CatherineM Posted November 20, 2009 Share Posted November 20, 2009 Hate to admit I agree with a Godless Heathen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winchester Posted November 20, 2009 Share Posted November 20, 2009 I see where you're coming from, but I think you misunderstand the guy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winchester Posted November 20, 2009 Share Posted November 20, 2009 [quote name='fidei defensor' date='20 November 2009 - 12:55 AM' timestamp='1258696555' post='2006119'] Now everyone can know where I stand. [/quote] You may be seated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Adam Posted November 20, 2009 Share Posted November 20, 2009 [quote name='fidei defensor' date='20 November 2009 - 01:55 AM' timestamp='1258696555' post='2006119'] I am pro-choice: you have to choice to have sex, you have the choice to have a baby. You do not have the choice to terminate a pregnancy, however. You made your choice when you decided to have sex. After that, you've made the choice and have to live with it. As a biologist, I assent that from the moment of conception, the embryo is a living human being. No one should be able to decide to kill a human being, be it pre-born or post born. What I disagree with: [list] [*]the tactics of argument. I don't believe it's an effective method to throw emotionally charged around and expect to change minds. People need to be shown why an embryo or fetus is living, not accused of supporting murder. Yes, you believe what you believe. But not everyone does, regardless of how reasonable you think that belief is. Learn to deal with those differences and make better arguments around them rather than being pig-headed and repeating the same thing over and over again as if it'll make a difference the next time you say it. [*]Personhood. I embrace life as an inalienable right that should never be taken away. However, in the Catholic argument, having a soul plays a major role in the inalienable right - God granted a soul. I think more of an effort needs to be made in regards to how pro-choice persons use "personhood" as a qualifier, not for the sake of agreement but to better understand their argument in an effort to persuade them. Personhood refers to when the fetus becomes a viable member of society, rather than just a living organism that it became at conception. Usually personhood can be equated with ensoulment, which for Catholics, happens at conception. However, the secular view is usually that personhood beings when the fetus is viable outside of the womb. I DO NOT WANT TO DEBATE THIS POINT. I am just pointing it out so that you can understand the difference in opinion. Again, a useful debate is about the issues, not calling people murderers. [/list] Now everyone can know where I stand. [/quote] I do not believe it is reasonable to state an opinion on a public forum and then tell the public they should not counter your argument with their own. I appreciate your view as a non-Catholic though. It is a common non-Christian argument for a pro-lifer. It is not unreasonable to call abortion out for what it is though - individual murder and a collective holocaust. I have changed many, many minds by calling it out for what it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
add Posted November 20, 2009 Share Posted November 20, 2009 (edited) [quote name='fidei defensor' date='20 November 2009 - 01:55 AM' timestamp='1258696555' post='2006119'] I am pro-choice: you have to choice to have sex, you have the choice to have a baby. You do not have the choice to terminate a pregnancy, however. You made your choice when you decided to have sex. After that, you've made the choice and have to live with it. As a biologist, I assent that from the moment of conception, the embryo is a living human being. No one should be able to decide to kill a human being, be it pre-born or post born. What I disagree with: [list][*]the tactics of argument. I don't believe it's an effective method to throw emotionally charged around and expect to change minds. People need to be shown why an embryo or fetus is living, not accused of supporting murder. Yes, you believe what you believe. But not everyone does, regardless of how reasonable you think that belief is. Learn to deal with those differences and make better arguments around them rather than being pig-headed and repeating the same thing over and over again as if it'll make a difference the next time you say it.[*]Personhood. I embrace life as an inalienable right that should never be taken away. However, in the Catholic argument, having a soul plays a major role in the inalienable right - God granted a soul. I think more of an effort needs to be made in regards to how pro-choice persons use "personhood" as a qualifier, not for the sake of agreement but to better understand their argument in an effort to persuade them. Personhood refers to when the fetus becomes a viable member of society, rather than just a living organism that it became at conception. Usually personhood can be equated with ensoulment, which for Catholics, happens at conception. However, the secular view is usually that personhood beings when the fetus is viable outside of the womb. I DO NOT WANT TO DEBATE THIS POINT. I am just pointing it out so that you can understand the difference in opinion. Again, a useful debate is about the issues, not calling people murderers.[/list] Now everyone can know where I stand. [/quote] What is there to talk about then, if you DO NOT WANT TO DEBATE THIS POINT. This secular misconception is really the heart of the matter. A human fetus (Catholic argument) or living organism (secular view). A human fetus if unaltered will develop into a sanctioned valuable entity. To abort, terminate or pro-choice is death, no matter how you sugarcoat it is killing. A new born s totally helpless, it takes years to develop before it can think independently, take care of itself, it can non talk, walk or wipe its own bottom without it's mother. This secular view dismisses viability of a fetus until it becomes a viable member of society, using this logic; I contend that does not occur until the age of reason (usually at seven years old, but in some case not until much later). This secular view you articulate is Barbaric Edited November 20, 2009 by apparently Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winchester Posted November 20, 2009 Share Posted November 20, 2009 [quote name='apparently' date='20 November 2009 - 08:46 AM' timestamp='1258724800' post='2006162'] This secular view youespouse is Barbaric [/quote] You either need to read his post or learn the definition of 'espouse'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
add Posted November 20, 2009 Share Posted November 20, 2009 [quote name='Winchester' date='20 November 2009 - 09:48 AM' timestamp='1258724933' post='2006163'] You either need to read his post or learn the definition of 'espouse'. [/quote] pardon my French, i meant express Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winchester Posted November 20, 2009 Share Posted November 20, 2009 [quote name='apparently' date='20 November 2009 - 09:02 AM' timestamp='1258725765' post='2006165'] pardon my French, i meant express [/quote] Explain would be even better. The Godless heathen has taken one of two logical roads. In this, as in many other things, he is on our side. If he is truly an atheist, he is a stoic. No offense, Fidei, in talking about you as if you weren't here. You're not right now, obviously. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fidei Defensor Posted November 20, 2009 Author Share Posted November 20, 2009 [quote name='Brother Adam' date='20 November 2009 - 07:35 AM' timestamp='1258724150' post='2006159'] I do not believe it is reasonable to state an opinion on a public forum and then tell the public they should not counter your argument with their own. I appreciate your view as a non-Catholic though. It is a common non-Christian argument for a pro-lifer. It is not unreasonable to call abortion out for what it is though - individual murder and a collective holocaust. I have changed many, many minds by calling it out for what it is. [/quote] I didn't make the thread to debate the topic, I made it to state my view. It's in the debate board because this is the place abortion is always discussed. I think it's reasonable to make a thread simply to point out where I stand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winchester Posted November 20, 2009 Share Posted November 20, 2009 Oh. You are here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fidei Defensor Posted November 20, 2009 Author Share Posted November 20, 2009 [quote name='Winchester' date='20 November 2009 - 08:06 AM' timestamp='1258725990' post='2006170'] Oh. You are here. [/quote] Lurking when you least expect it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fidei Defensor Posted November 20, 2009 Author Share Posted November 20, 2009 [quote name='apparently' date='20 November 2009 - 07:46 AM' timestamp='1258724800' post='2006162'] What is there to talk about then, if you DO NOT WANT TO DEBATE THIS POINT. This secular misconception is really the heart of the matter. A human fetus (Catholic argument) or living organism (secular view). A human fetus if unaltered will develop into a sanctioned valuable entity. To abort, terminate or pro-choice is death, no matter how you sugarcoat it is killing. A new born s totally helpless, it takes years to develop before it can think independently, take care of itself, it can non talk, walk or wipe its own bottom without it's mother. This secular view dismisses viability of a fetus until it becomes a viable member of society, using this logic; I contend that does not occur until the age of reason (usually at seven years old, but in some case not until much later). This secular view you articulate is Barbaric [/quote] Did you even read what I said? Honestly? I said that to kill a pre-born child is, as I see it, wrong. I simply stated the opposing opinion so that you may understand that there are many different views. I didn't say it was my opinion, and I have stated that in many places many different times. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Servus_Mariae Posted November 20, 2009 Share Posted November 20, 2009 That was a great post fidei, well thought out and fair...and I uh...agree...with...you. I also agree with your examination of the debate tactics. You've got to take people where they are...not where you feel they need to be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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