Apotheoun Posted November 19, 2009 Share Posted November 19, 2009 [quote name='JimR-OCDS' date='19 November 2009 - 12:01 PM' timestamp='1258657296' post='2005667'] Because there are those who can't wrap their minds around the idea, that Pope John Paul II, kissed the Koran a Cleric handed him out of respect, and not that he was embracing Islamic doctrine. Jim [/quote] I am sure that he did many foolish things in his life, but that does not mean that people should leave the Church if he is canonized. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted November 19, 2009 Share Posted November 19, 2009 St Augustine probably did worse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted November 19, 2009 Share Posted November 19, 2009 [quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='19 November 2009 - 12:14 PM' timestamp='1258658041' post='2005674'] St Augustine probably did worse. [/quote] It depends on how you view things I suppose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted November 19, 2009 Share Posted November 19, 2009 [quote name='Apotheoun' date='19 November 2009 - 01:15 PM' timestamp='1258658115' post='2005675'] It depends on how you view things I suppose. [/quote] Good point; I don't know exactly what St. Augustine did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted November 19, 2009 Share Posted November 19, 2009 [quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='19 November 2009 - 12:16 PM' timestamp='1258658200' post='2005677'] Good point; I don't know exactly what St. Augustine did. [/quote] I am sure he did many things, but what most people bring up is his fathering a child out of wedlock. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted November 19, 2009 Share Posted November 19, 2009 [quote name='Apotheoun' date='19 November 2009 - 01:17 PM' timestamp='1258658257' post='2005678'] I am sure he did many things, but what most people bring up is his fathering a child out of wedlock. [/quote] I should read Confessions again. Last time I only got a quarter of the way through, because I started a different book and someone wanted to borrow Confessions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted November 19, 2009 Share Posted November 19, 2009 (edited) [quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='19 November 2009 - 12:20 PM' timestamp='1258658451' post='2005684'] I should read Confessions again. Last time I only got a quarter of the way through, because I started a different book and someone wanted to borrow Confessions. [/quote] I find most of St. Augustine's writings a bit dull, except perhaps for his [i]Enarrationes in Psalmos[/i], which I always found to be fairly interesting because of the way he speaks about the union of Christ and the Church. Edited November 19, 2009 by Apotheoun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted November 19, 2009 Share Posted November 19, 2009 [quote name='Apotheoun' date='19 November 2009 - 01:26 PM' timestamp='1258658774' post='2005687'] I find most of St. Augustine's writings a bit dull, except perhaps for his [i]Enarrationes in Psalmos[/i], which I always found to be fairly interesting because of the way he speaks about the union of Christ and the Church. [/quote] To be honest, I found the same thing. That's why I didn't read it all in one go. The way he's able to seamlessly blend Scripture and his own thoughts is truly remarkable. I don't think I can possibly overemphasize how amazing I think that is, but it made for a really dense read. It's probably because I approached it like a novel or homily, rather than as a really long meditative prayer... which it really seems like it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Veridicus Posted November 19, 2009 Share Posted November 19, 2009 (edited) [quote name='Apotheoun' date='19 November 2009 - 02:11 PM' timestamp='1258657883' post='2005672'] I am sure that he did many foolish things in his life, but that does not mean that people should leave the Church if he is canonized. [/quote] Well summarized. I wish he hadn't kissed the Koran or asked John the Baptist to "protect Islam"; I wish he had laid a firmer foot down upon the aberrations occurring in the Western Liturgy over the last 30 years... But in other much more numerable ways he was a good Pope. There have been plenty of Saints who have done more aberrant things than this during their lives. Its the Church's job to attend to such things and my job to be obedient. Truth is what It is. Edited November 19, 2009 by Veridicus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kafka Posted November 19, 2009 Share Posted November 19, 2009 [quote name='Dave' date='18 November 2009 - 10:49 PM' timestamp='1258602573' post='2005409'] I realize this may open up a can of worms here ... But if Pope John Paul II, God willing, gets canonized, do you think that further division in the Church might happen? Don't get me wrong; I'd love to see him get canonized (if it's God's will), but I know there are lots of traditionalist Catholics who don't have any good things to say about him (and whose accusations we're probably all familiar with). If it does happen, does anyone think that the number of sedevacantists will increase big-time? I mean, it's quite likely that many SSPXers and other traditionalists (both within the Church and without) might consider Rome to have officially apostasized should John Paul II be canonized. Of course, that wouldn't be Rome or the Church's fault; it would be the fault of those who think they know better than the Church about who's worthy of canonization. Even so, it's just something I've wondered about. Thoughts? [/quote] that is a possibility. The groundwork for the great schism is already laid out deep in men's hearts, so as events unfold over the next few years (it is my understanding that JPII's canonization will occur on one of the first events of the 1st part of the Tribulation/End Times) Catholics on the far right and far left may start outwardly express the interior schizm/heresies planted in their hearts. [quote name='Aloysius' date='19 November 2009 - 07:55 AM' timestamp='1258635334' post='2005517'] I think most of those types will accept the canonization like they've accepted most canonizations in the post-council Church. if the proliferation of canonizations hasn't already sent them sedevacantist, they likely believe something to the effect that while all canonized saints are in heaven because canonization is protected by infallibility, post-conciliar saints are often ones who would have been non-popular saints in heaven according to pre-conciliar standards. I think the ones who are not already sedevacantists are perfectly fine seeing John Paul II as having gone to heaven... the only reason they wouldn't be okay with it is if they thought he was a formal heretic in which case they'd have already been sedevacantist in the first place. they'll never praise the papacy of John Paul II or call him "the Great" and probably won't develop any type of devotion to him, but I don't think his canonization is likely to make anyone a sedevacantist who wasn't one already. [/quote] good points, though some ultra-conservatives who are schizmatic deep down, may 'come out' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Posted November 19, 2009 Share Posted November 19, 2009 [quote name='kafka' date='19 November 2009 - 04:25 PM' timestamp='1258662327' post='2005730'] it is my understanding that JPII's canonization will occur on one of the first events of the 1st part of the Tribulation/End Times) [/quote] Where did you hear that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lil Red Posted November 19, 2009 Share Posted November 19, 2009 [quote name='Dave' date='19 November 2009 - 02:34 PM' timestamp='1258662884' post='2005736'] Where did you hear that? [/quote] +J.M.J.+ kafka's predictions about the future in 3 2 1.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kafka Posted November 19, 2009 Share Posted November 19, 2009 [quote name='Lil Red' date='19 November 2009 - 03:43 PM' timestamp='1258663380' post='2005743'] +J.M.J.+ kafka's predictions about the future in 3 2 1.... [/quote] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted November 19, 2009 Share Posted November 19, 2009 I don't necessarily agree with Kafka's personal interpretations, but I always did enjoy thinking about them. Whether or not they occur as he predicts, it's never a bad thing to be prepared, and to look for signs that it may occur. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zunshynn Posted November 19, 2009 Share Posted November 19, 2009 [quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='19 November 2009 - 11:04 AM' timestamp='1258653866' post='2005615'] I wonder if anyone on the other end of the spectrum would break if the canonization process happens to stall indefinitely for whatever reason. Is there a process where the cause for canonization is officially closed? I've never heard about it happening. [/quote] Maybe we'll find out when you die. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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