Council Of Chalcedon

[Veridicus]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='18 November 2009 - 05:11 PM' timestamp='1258582297' post='2005067']
Pope Shenouda is not an anti-pope; instead, he is the Oriental Orthodox bishop of Alexandria.

Alexandrian Christians, both Eastern Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox, have called the bishop of Alexandria "pope" for centuries.
[/quote]

Well holy croutons. Didnt' know that. That's interesting. Are the Oriental Orthodox schismatic or heretical by Orthodox/Catholic standards?

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='18 November 2009 - 06:00 PM' timestamp='1258585250' post='2005109']
So the gist of that is two natures in one person?
[/quote]

Yep. If you want to go into more detail, I'd recommend that you read the text of the Tome of Leo, upon which Chacledon's dogmatic definition was based.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Veridicus' date='18 November 2009 - 04:04 PM' timestamp='1258585468' post='2005112']
Are the Oriental Orthodox schismatic or heretical by Orthodox/Catholic standards?
[/quote]
That is a good question.

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='Veridicus' date='18 November 2009 - 06:04 PM' timestamp='1258585468' post='2005112']
Well holy croutons. Didnt' know that. That's interesting. Are the Oriental Orthodox schismatic or heretical by Orthodox/Catholic standards?
[/quote]

The Oriental Orthodox Churches are both heretical and schismatic, just like the Eastern Orthodox Churches.

(N.B., though "Eastern" and "Oriental" mean the exact same thing, "Eastern Orthodox" generally refers to those in communion with the Constantinople while "Oriental Orthodox" refers to non-Chalcedonians.

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='18 November 2009 - 05:57 PM' timestamp='1258585035' post='2005104']
Would it be inappropriate for a Roman Catholic to grant him that title?
[/quote]

I think so. "Pope" has been used exclusively in referring to the Bishop of Rome for more than 1000 years.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='Resurrexi' date='18 November 2009 - 05:16 PM' timestamp='1258586209' post='2005123']
I think so. "Pope" has been used exclusively in referring to the Bishop of Rome for more than 1000 years.
[/quote]
So how would you suggest we as Roman Catholics refer to him? I guess there really isn't a generic term that encompasses bishop and pope and patriarch etc., is there? Lol. Maybe Hierarch Shenouda? haha.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='18 November 2009 - 04:45 PM' timestamp='1258587943' post='2005141']
So how would you suggest we as Roman Catholics refer to him? I guess there really isn't a generic term that encompasses bishop and pope and patriarch etc., is there? Lol. Maybe Hierarch Shenouda? haha.
[/quote]
Eastern Catholics generally call the bishop of Alexandria pope - whether one is talking about the Eastern Orthodox bishop, the Coptic bishop, or the Catholic bishop.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='18 November 2009 - 05:54 PM' timestamp='1258588450' post='2005151']
Eastern Catholics generally call the bishop of Alexandria pope - whether one is talking about the Eastern Orthodox bishop, the Coptic bishop, or the Catholic bishop.
[/quote]
We call them all Pope?? This gets more confusing the more I learn about it!

[Apotheoun]

The Fifth Ecumenical Council's seventh canon against the [i]Three Chapters[/i] is also vitally important for gaining a proper understanding of the dogma of the incarnation:


[size="3"]If anyone, when speaking about the two natures, does not confess a belief in our one Lord Jesus Christ, understood in both His divinity and His humanity, so as by this to signify a difference of natures of which an ineffable union has been made without confusion, in which neither the nature of the Word was changed into the nature of human flesh, nor was the nature of human flesh changed into that of the Word (each remained what it was by nature, even after the union, as this had been made in respect of subsistence); and if anyone understands the two natures in the mystery of Christ in the sense of a division into parts, or if he expresses his belief in the plural natures in the same Lord Jesus Christ, God the Word made flesh, but does not consider the difference of those natures, of which He is composed, to be only in the onlooker's mind (τὴ θεωρὶα μόνη), a difference which is not compromised by the union (for He is one from both and the two exist through the one) but uses the plurality to suggest that each nature is possessed separately and has a subsistence of its own: let him be anathema. [/size]

Edited November 19, 2009 by Apotheoun

[Nihil Obstat]

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='18 November 2009 - 07:09 PM' timestamp='1258589357' post='2005165']
The Fifth Ecumenical Council
[/quote]

Constantinople II

[Veridicus]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='18 November 2009 - 07:09 PM' timestamp='1258589357' post='2005165']
...let him be anathema.[/quote]

Funny the word "anathema" has become anathema to ecumenical dialogue and was thus struck from the vernacular at Vatican 2. Does that word exist anywhere in the V2 Docs?

Edited November 19, 2009 by Veridicus

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Veridicus' date='18 November 2009 - 05:31 PM' timestamp='1258590673' post='2005178']
Funny the word "anathema" has become anathema to ecumenical dialogue and was thus struck from the vernacular at Vatican 2.
[/quote]
The value of an anathema is founded upon the authority of the one issuing it, and modern society tends to reject the idea that anyone has authority.

[Veridicus]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='18 November 2009 - 07:43 PM' timestamp='1258591423' post='2005191']
The value of an anathema is founded upon the authority of the one issuing it, and modern society tends to reject the idea that anyone has authority.
[/quote]


That is an excellent way of phrasing it. I'll let the inference and implications simmer.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='18 November 2009 - 05:12 PM' timestamp='1258589560' post='2005166']

[/quote]
You cannot read the canon carefully if you look at it cross-eyed.