Nihil Obstat Posted June 25, 2008 Share Posted June 25, 2008 [quote name='TeresaBenedicta' post='1582168' date='Jun 24 2008, 07:37 PM']When it's breaking away from strong, well-founded traditions in order to appease people, I think that's watering down. Taking something of high concentration and making it lower... Anywho, I completely agree with your third statement. We don't need to violate our own traditions to attract people who are on the fence. What we need to do is teach them the importance of the traditions and of the faith; if they bite, they bite. If they don't, well, we can't bend over backwords for them, but we can continue to pray for them.[/quote] We don't have traditions for the sake of traditions though. We have them for various reasons. Traditions aren't right just because they're tradition, they always need to have basis in God. If a tradition (which may very well have been entirely correct in the past) becomes a stumbling block to faith later on (which I'd argue can happen due to the constantly evolving nature of our world and understanding of our own faith), then it would be acceptable to alter the tradition somewhat. Maybe there are some things which were done in the past for certain reasons, but those reasons just don't apply anymore? I'm positive there are some cases. Relics in altars, for instance. It turned into an abuse. It had been tradition. Now it isn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TeresaBenedicta Posted June 25, 2008 Share Posted June 25, 2008 [quote name='HisChildForever' post='1582160' date='Jun 24 2008, 09:31 PM']This may be a bit late to interject, but - Jesus humbly washed the feet of the Twelve. He certainly did not act like He was too good to serve others. I don't think that He would mind if a Eucharistic Minister gave out Communion. Technically, we're all unworthy to receive Him, including the priests. Priests do sin, they are not perfect.[/quote] I think I may be misunderstood here. Or at least I hope that I am. I am not against the use of Extraordinary Ministers of Holy Communion-- when they are necessary. What I am against is the over-use of them, and for their use when the reasoning behind it is to "be more inclusive" and to "get more people involved" in the Mass. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TeresaBenedicta Posted June 25, 2008 Share Posted June 25, 2008 (edited) [quote name='Nihil Obstat' post='1582180' date='Jun 24 2008, 09:44 PM']We don't have traditions for the sake of traditions though. We have them for various reasons. Traditions aren't right just because they're tradition, they always need to have basis in God. If a tradition (which may very well have been entirely correct in the past) becomes a stumbling block to faith later on (which I'd argue can happen due to the constantly evolving nature of our world and understanding of our own faith), then it would be acceptable to alter the tradition somewhat. Maybe there are some things which were done in the past for certain reasons, but those reasons just don't apply anymore? I'm positive there are some cases. Relics in altars, for instance. It turned into an abuse. It had been tradition. Now it isn't.[/quote] Relics in altars is still a tradition; maybe not as wide-spread of one, albeit. ((Just for curiosity's sake: [url="http://www.ewtn.com/library/Liturgy/zlitur80.htm"]Relics in Altars- EWTN[/url])) My church's altar has a relic of St. Thomas in it. But, I would disagree with this as an example of traditions with reasons that don't apply anymore. Do you know why we have relics in altars? Scott Hahn gives a good explanation in his book [i]The Lamb's Supper[/i]. It has to do with Revelation and the blood of the martyrs being at the foot of the altar. But, I agree with the basis of your statement-- traditions must have basis in God. Not be there just for traditions sake. That's why there is such an importance of [i]explaining[/i] the traditions. Meaning gets lost so easily. Edited June 25, 2008 by TeresaBenedicta Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted June 25, 2008 Share Posted June 25, 2008 [quote name='TeresaBenedicta' post='1582192' date='Jun 24 2008, 07:57 PM']Relics in altars is still a tradition; maybe not as wide-spread of one, albeit. ((Just for curiosity's sake: [url="http://www.ewtn.com/library/Liturgy/zlitur80.htm"]Relics in Altars- EWTN[/url])) My church's altar has a relic of St. Thomas in it. But, I would disagree with this as an example of traditions with reasons that don't apply anymore. Do you know why we have relics in altars? Scott Hahn gives a good explanation in his book [i]The Lamb's Supper[/i]. It has to do with Revelation and the blood of the martyrs being at the foot of the altar. But, I agree with the basis of your statement-- traditions must have basis in God. Not be there just for traditions sake. That's why there is such an importance of [i]explaining[/i] the traditions. Meaning gets lost so easily.[/quote] You're right, that was a bad example. I rushed it a little bit. I'm sure there are examples though, of what I'm talking about. How about the ideas of modesty changing over the years? Obviously this isn't a proper 'tradition', but it's a good analogy. Back in the middle ages and such, it was entirely improper for a woman to wear any less than a full length dress with a high neckline, etc, etc. (correct me if I'm wrong) Now things are very different. Are things worse today? I'd argue that in general they are not. Of course there are many people that abuse modesty, but conservative fashions today, while far less modest than in ages past, are in my opinion, quite acceptable. So I'm sure you understand what I'm saying. Traditions are there only for good reason, and even these good reasons can change with evolving culture and revelation, which can change, in certain ways, the traditions themselves. It's not watering down, it's evolving. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted June 25, 2008 Share Posted June 25, 2008 Eastern Christians hold that Tradition is inspired, and that liturgical customs that arise through the course of history are expressions of the inspired Apostolic Tradition. Ultimately, to be Catholic is to embrace Tradition, and not to seek to constantly change it with each successive generation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted June 25, 2008 Share Posted June 25, 2008 [quote name='Apotheoun' post='1582291' date='Jun 24 2008, 09:09 PM']Eastern Christians hold that Tradition is inspired, and that liturgical customs that arise through the course of history are expressions of the inspired Apostolic Tradition. Ultimately, to be Catholic is to embrace Tradition, and not to seek to constantly change it with each successive generation.[/quote] Sorry, I was trying to distinguish between tradition and Tradition. Traditions (capital T) are fairly strictly defined, are they not? and even the strictly defined ones could, in theory, changed in accordance with continued understanding and revelation of God's Word. Right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TeresaBenedicta Posted June 25, 2008 Share Posted June 25, 2008 [quote name='Nihil Obstat' post='1582281' date='Jun 24 2008, 11:06 PM']You're right, that was a bad example. I rushed it a little bit. I'm sure there are examples though, of what I'm talking about. How about the ideas of modesty changing over the years? Obviously this isn't a proper 'tradition', but it's a good analogy. Back in the middle ages and such, it was entirely improper for a woman to wear any less than a full length dress with a high neckline, etc, etc. (correct me if I'm wrong) Now things are very different. Are things worse today? I'd argue that in general they are not. Of course there are many people that abuse modesty, but conservative fashions today, while far less modest than in ages past, are in my opinion, quite acceptable. So I'm sure you understand what I'm saying. Traditions are there only for good reason, and even these good reasons can change with evolving culture and revelation, which can change, in certain ways, the traditions themselves. It's not watering down, it's evolving.[/quote] Well, like you said, it isn't exactly a proper tradition, although I suppose if you were to substitute in the mantilla/head covering, and that would work. (Not that I'd like to bring in the debate about that, lol, waaay over-done.) I'd agree, to a certain extent, about traditions to do with culture. But I think there is a fine line between evolving with the culture and staying true to the faith and our traditions. What the line is, exactly, I'm not sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted June 25, 2008 Share Posted June 25, 2008 [quote name='TeresaBenedicta' post='1582333' date='Jun 24 2008, 09:32 PM']I'd agree, to a certain extent, about traditions to do with culture. But I think there is a fine line between evolving with the culture and staying true to the faith and our traditions. What the line is, exactly, I'm not sure.[/quote] I guess that's where our Divine guidance comes in. I'd definitely say that to some extent Tradition will evolve with culture, not to water itself down for culture, but because a changing society also alters the Traditions that are based partially in it. I don't pretend to know where that line is either. I'm going to trust in the Church to remain infallible, I'm going to listen to the priests and bishops, and trust. If I do something wrong, then at least I'll have done it out of trust in God, and a sincere desire to do what He asks. After all, a break with Tradition, if it was unintentional, and done out of love for God, can't be all that bad in his books, I'm sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StColette Posted June 25, 2008 Share Posted June 25, 2008 [quote name='BLAZEr' post='157797' date='Apr 8 2004, 03:12 AM']In fact, an early martyr and patron of Altar Boys (I'll give 10 points to the first person who can name him!) was martyred while he was carrying the Eucharist to the sick who could not make it to the mass.[/quote] St. Tarcisius 3rd or 4th century martyr Can I have ten points now? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted June 25, 2008 Share Posted June 25, 2008 I must have missed that post... ...but I remember reading about him! Isn't the story that they basically stoned him? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dominicansoul Posted April 24, 2010 Share Posted April 24, 2010 i think women should only serve sandwiches... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted April 25, 2010 Share Posted April 25, 2010 Why is "No" not an option? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iheartjp2 Posted May 5, 2010 Share Posted May 5, 2010 Women being altar servers: Counter-intuitive and counter-productive to vocations/orthodoxy. Women serving in other allowable capacities at mass: Sure, why not? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selah Posted May 5, 2010 Share Posted May 5, 2010 [quote name='dominicansoul' date='23 April 2010 - 11:37 PM' timestamp='1272076627' post='2098958'] i think women should only serve sandwiches... [/quote] Well, what're you waiting for? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HisChildForever Posted May 5, 2010 Share Posted May 5, 2010 [quote name='dominicansoul' date='23 April 2010 - 10:37 PM' timestamp='1272076627' post='2098958'] i think women should only serve sandwiches... [/quote] I am disgusted that someone gave this a positive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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