Fidei Defensor Posted November 16, 2009 Share Posted November 16, 2009 [quote name='apparently' date='15 November 2009 - 08:52 PM' timestamp='1258339956' post='2003482'] United States "one nation under God" [/quote] Wow. That's your argument? Mr.CatholicCat was quite correct in his summary of religious freedom in the U.S. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jesus_lol Posted November 16, 2009 Share Posted November 16, 2009 [quote name='apparently' date='15 November 2009 - 06:52 PM' timestamp='1258339956' post='2003482'] United States "one nation under God" [/quote] you do realize that was only added in 1954, and was NOT in the original constitution? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr.Cat Posted November 16, 2009 Share Posted November 16, 2009 (edited) [quote name='apparently' date='15 November 2009 - 09:52 PM' timestamp='1258339956' post='2003482']United States "one nation under God"[/quote]Francis Bellamy (1855-1931) wrote the original Pledge of Allegiance in 1892: "I pledge allegiance to my Flag and to the Republic for which it stands, one nation indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.” While efforts to amend and change this pledge have existed almost from 1892, the United States Congress adopted in 1954 a modified version which included the phrase “under God”. The United States Supreme Court ruling in "West Virginia State Board of Education v. Barnette" (1943) found that compulsory use of the pledge violated the First Amendment, that it violated an individual’s freedom of opinion, even before the version with the phrase “under God” was added. In 2002 and 2005 Federal courts ruled "one Nation under God" in the Pledge of Allegiance was an unconstitutional endorsement of monotheism in public schools when compulsory. In 2006 the Federal courts ruled against compulsory standing for the Pledge in public schools, overturning a Florida law citing it violated the first and fourteenth amendments. So while the Pledge of Allegiance was found unconstitutional, then found unconstitutional, and then found unconstitutional again... No. It is resonable to suggest the United States goverment is a secular one, it is [b][u]NOT[/u][/b] a religious government. Regardless if the Pledge of Allegiance is used or not; constitutional or unconstitutional. [quote][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francis_Bellamy"]Francis Bellamy[/url] (1855-1931) "It began as an intensive communing with salient points of our national history, from the Declaration of Independence onwards; with the makings of the Constitution... with the meaning of the Civil War; with the aspiration of the people... Just here arose the temptation of the historic slogan of the French Revolution which meant so much to Jefferson and his friends, 'Liberty, equality, fraternity'. No, that would be too fanciful, too many thousands of years off in realization. But we as a nation do stand square on the doctrine of liberty and justice for all..."[/quote] Edited November 16, 2009 by Mr.CatholicCat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
add Posted November 16, 2009 Author Share Posted November 16, 2009 [quote name='Jesus_lol' date='15 November 2009 - 11:31 PM' timestamp='1258342271' post='2003515'] you do realize that was only added in 1954, and was NOT in the original constitution? [/quote] does this fact invalidate anything? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fidei Defensor Posted November 16, 2009 Share Posted November 16, 2009 [quote name='apparently' date='16 November 2009 - 09:10 AM' timestamp='1258384240' post='2003642'] does this fact invalidate anything? [/quote] It invalidates it as an argument against religious freedom for those who are of a different belief system or no religious belief system at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint Therese Posted November 16, 2009 Share Posted November 16, 2009 The real question is not freedom of religion but freedom of conscience. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fidei Defensor Posted November 16, 2009 Share Posted November 16, 2009 (edited) [quote name='Saint Therese' date='16 November 2009 - 10:38 AM' timestamp='1258389484' post='2003712'] The real question is not freedom of religion but freedom of conscience. [/quote] Legally, the U.S. Constitution only grants freedom of religion. Conscience may fall under freedom of speech, assuming you're voicing you opinion. Edited November 16, 2009 by fidei defensor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jesus_lol Posted November 16, 2009 Share Posted November 16, 2009 [quote name='apparently' date='16 November 2009 - 07:10 AM' timestamp='1258384240' post='2003642'] does this fact invalidate anything? [/quote] it means a bunch of guys from hundreds of years ago have no right to force people to accept religion, and especially people who came along way later with political bargaining power on the mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
add Posted November 16, 2009 Author Share Posted November 16, 2009 [quote name='Jesus_lol' date='16 November 2009 - 01:55 PM' timestamp='1258394120' post='2003753'] it means a bunch of guys from hundreds of years ago have no right to force people to accept religion, and especially people who came along way later with political bargaining power on the mind. [/quote] i hate them guys Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
add Posted November 17, 2009 Author Share Posted November 17, 2009 (edited) [quote name='Era Might' date='15 November 2009 - 12:11 AM' timestamp='1258258290' post='2003066'] Dude, it's not even Thanksgiving yet. [/quote] the not Christmas "Holiday" season started in the big department stores like a month ago, where you been? Edited November 17, 2009 by apparently Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted November 17, 2009 Share Posted November 17, 2009 I just can't wait for the 24/7 lite rock Christmas music to start playing at my work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Resurrexi Posted November 17, 2009 Share Posted November 17, 2009 [quote name='Jesus_lol' date='15 November 2009 - 10:31 PM' timestamp='1258342271' post='2003515'] you do realize that was only added in 1954, and was NOT in the original constitution? [/quote] Did you perhaps mean the Pledge of Allegiance? The prepositional phrase "under God" is mentioned neither in the original Constitution nor in any of its amendments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jesus_lol Posted November 18, 2009 Share Posted November 18, 2009 [quote name='Resurrexi' date='17 November 2009 - 02:39 PM' timestamp='1258497582' post='2004454'] Did you perhaps mean the Pledge of Allegiance? The prepositional phrase "under God" is mentioned neither in the original Constitution nor in any of its amendments. [/quote] yes, thats correct, thanks. further proves that the phrase isnt significant in this discussion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
add Posted November 18, 2009 Author Share Posted November 18, 2009 [quote name='Jesus_lol' date='17 November 2009 - 09:43 PM' timestamp='1258508589' post='2004606'] yes, thats correct, thanks. further proves that the phrase isnt significant in this discussion. [/quote] A pledge that is recited every day has relevancy. The US is not a Godless society, churchesabound throughout the land. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fidei Defensor Posted November 18, 2009 Share Posted November 18, 2009 [quote name='apparently' date='18 November 2009 - 04:53 AM' timestamp='1258541585' post='2004744'] A pledge that is recited every day has relevancy. The US is not a Godless society, churchesabound throughout the land. [/quote] Yes, private Churches where attendance is optional. We have freedom of religion or lack thereof in this country. Get over it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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