HisChildForever Posted November 16, 2009 Share Posted November 16, 2009 [quote name='Apotheoun' date='15 November 2009 - 08:02 PM' timestamp='1258333369' post='2003424'] I guess it won't ever register with some people, but hell - according to the Fathers - is a form of salvation. [b]God will not destroy, nor will He allow another to destroy, His creation.[/b] [/quote] You know that's not the issue of this debate, so why do you keep bringing it up? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted November 16, 2009 Share Posted November 16, 2009 (edited) [quote name='HisChildForever' date='15 November 2009 - 06:09 PM' timestamp='1258333781' post='2003428'] You know that's not the issue of this debate, so why do you keep bringing it up? [/quote] Yes, it is the issue of the debate. Hell is (1) better than not having existed at all, or - for those who already exist - (2) being allowed to fall into non-existence. Thus, it is better to exist in hell than never to have existed at all. Edited November 16, 2009 by Apotheoun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightofChrist Posted November 16, 2009 Share Posted November 16, 2009 [quote name='HisChildForever' date='15 November 2009 - 08:09 PM' timestamp='1258333781' post='2003428'] You know that's not the issue of this debate, so why do you keep bringing it up? [/quote] If the debate is truly about "Is It Better To Be In Hell Or To Never Have Existed?" Then his point has everything to do with this debate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HisChildForever Posted November 16, 2009 Share Posted November 16, 2009 [quote name='Apotheoun' date='15 November 2009 - 08:11 PM' timestamp='1258333899' post='2003429'] Yes, it is the issue of the debate. [b]Hell is better than never having existed at all,[/b] or - for those who already exist - being allowed to fall into non-existence. Thus, it is better to exist in hell than never to have existed at all. [/quote] I thought the debate is just focused on the first part. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted November 16, 2009 Share Posted November 16, 2009 [quote name='HisChildForever' date='15 November 2009 - 06:09 PM' timestamp='1258333781' post='2003428'] You know that's not the issue of this debate, so why do you keep bringing it up? [/quote] One of the things that you are not recognizing in this question is the notion that God could make a mistake. We do not choose to come into being, God makes that choice, and He is never wrong in His actions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted November 16, 2009 Share Posted November 16, 2009 [quote name='HisChildForever' date='15 November 2009 - 06:13 PM' timestamp='1258334012' post='2003431'] I thought the debate is just focused on the first part. [/quote] I have simply expanded the debate by answering the original question (and by doing so several times); while adding the point that once God gives existence to a being He will not allow it to be destroyed, and - of course - associated with this latter point is the fact that God does not make mistakes and so if something exists it does so because He desired it as a good that would help to bring about the fullness ([i]pleroma[/i]) of created reality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HisChildForever Posted November 16, 2009 Share Posted November 16, 2009 Too bad we can't ask the souls in Hell this question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted November 16, 2009 Share Posted November 16, 2009 The section of the post on predestination (point no. 9) linked below, which I wrote a few years ago, should be helpful: [url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=34879&view=findpost&p=652378"][u]East and West[/u][/url] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted November 16, 2009 Share Posted November 16, 2009 [quote name='HisChildForever' date='15 November 2009 - 06:28 PM' timestamp='1258334927' post='2003438'] Too bad we can't ask the souls in Hell this question. [/quote] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HisChildForever Posted November 16, 2009 Share Posted November 16, 2009 There's nothing smiley about that! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted November 16, 2009 Share Posted November 16, 2009 [quote name='HisChildForever' date='15 November 2009 - 06:32 PM' timestamp='1258335172' post='2003443'] There's nothing smiley about that! [/quote] If they are in hell it is unlikely they would tell you the truth. I mean come on . . . read what St. Maximos said in the quotation I provided. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HisChildForever Posted November 16, 2009 Share Posted November 16, 2009 [quote name='Apotheoun' date='15 November 2009 - 08:46 PM' timestamp='1258335986' post='2003445'] If they are in hell it is unlikely they would tell you the truth. I mean come on . . . read what St. Maximos said in the quotation I provided. [/quote] I think "get me out of here!" would be a truthful declaration... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted November 16, 2009 Share Posted November 16, 2009 [quote name='HisChildForever' date='15 November 2009 - 06:50 PM' timestamp='1258336239' post='2003448'] I think "get me out of here!" would be a truthful declaration... [/quote] Except hell is not a "here"; instead, it is simply God's presence as it is subjectively perceived by those who failed to live virtuously. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OraProMe Posted November 16, 2009 Share Posted November 16, 2009 [quote name='Apotheoun' date='15 November 2009 - 08:01 PM' timestamp='1258333286' post='2003423'] He was using hyperbole. Like when He said a person should cut of his hand if it makes him sin, etc. [/quote] No no no. The thing about cutting of the hand is clearly supposed to convey a meaning: how much we should hate and avoid sin. The thing about Judas cannot be likened to that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted November 16, 2009 Share Posted November 16, 2009 [quote name='OraProMe' date='15 November 2009 - 06:58 PM' timestamp='1258336695' post='2003451'] No no no. The thing about cutting of the hand is clearly supposed to convey a meaning: how much we should hate and avoid sin. The thing about Judas cannot be likened to that. [/quote] Both statements convey meaning, but that does not change their hyperbolic character. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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