KnightofChrist Posted November 15, 2009 Share Posted November 15, 2009 [quote name='Resurrexi' date='14 November 2009 - 07:20 PM' timestamp='1258244437' post='2002908'] Are you certain that natural disasters are an effect of the fall? I'm pretty sure that the dinosaurs went extinct because of a "natural disaster" long before God created man. [/quote] Did death exist before the fall of man? Did dinosaurs die? Think on that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Resurrexi Posted November 15, 2009 Share Posted November 15, 2009 [quote name='KnightofChrist' date='14 November 2009 - 07:44 PM' timestamp='1258245847' post='2002919'] Did death exist before the fall of man? Did dinosaurs die? Think on that. [/quote] Dinosaurs certainly died... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightofChrist Posted November 15, 2009 Share Posted November 15, 2009 [quote name='Resurrexi' date='14 November 2009 - 08:09 PM' timestamp='1258247363' post='2002942'] Dinosaurs certainly died... [/quote] Did death exist before the fall of man? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T-Bone _ Posted November 15, 2009 Share Posted November 15, 2009 [quote name='KnightofChrist' date='14 November 2009 - 06:13 PM' timestamp='1258247607' post='2002946'] Did death exist before the fall of man? [/quote] The man already said that dinosaurs died... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted November 15, 2009 Share Posted November 15, 2009 I see no reason for the negative point being given to KofC for his comment. He simply asked a question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Resurrexi Posted November 15, 2009 Share Posted November 15, 2009 [quote name='Apotheoun' date='14 November 2009 - 08:19 PM' timestamp='1258247981' post='2002952'] I see no reason for the negative point being given to KofC for his comment. He simply asked a question. [/quote] I agree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Resurrexi Posted November 15, 2009 Share Posted November 15, 2009 [quote name='KnightofChrist' date='14 November 2009 - 08:13 PM' timestamp='1258247607' post='2002946'] Did death exist before the fall of man? [/quote] Human death did not exist before the fall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightofChrist Posted November 15, 2009 Share Posted November 15, 2009 Death did not exist before the fall of man. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted November 15, 2009 Share Posted November 15, 2009 Scripture asserts that God is not the author of death. So the question is: How is this assertion to be understood? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted November 15, 2009 Share Posted November 15, 2009 (edited) [quote name='Resurrexi' date='14 November 2009 - 06:21 PM' timestamp='1258248065' post='2002956'] Human death did not exist before the fall. [/quote] That is the common modern way of understanding the scriptural texts, but the Church Fathers often assert that the corruption present in nature, which is experienced by animals as well as men, was also caused by the ancestral sin, and that man - as the priest of creation - has the duty to offer creation back to God in order for it to be sanctified. What are we to make of these patristic teachings? Edited November 15, 2009 by Apotheoun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Resurrexi Posted November 15, 2009 Share Posted November 15, 2009 [quote name='Apotheoun' date='14 November 2009 - 08:24 PM' timestamp='1258248279' post='2002961'] That is the common modern way of understanding the scriptural texts, but the Church Fathers often assert that the corruption present in nature, which is experienced by animals as well as men, was also caused by the ancestral sin, and that man - as the priest of creation - has the duty to offer creation back to God in order for it to be sanctified. What are we to make of these patristic teachings? [/quote] I would have to see the original texts from the Fathers myself; however, I do not think that the Church has definitively declared about whether or not non-rational animals could have died before the fall. In any case, there can be no contradiction between the truths of the faith and the truths known through the natural sciences. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted November 15, 2009 Share Posted November 15, 2009 (edited) [quote name='Resurrexi' date='14 November 2009 - 06:29 PM' timestamp='1258248587' post='2002963'] I would have to see the original texts from the Fathers myself; however, I do not think that the Church has definitively declared about whether or not non-rational animals could have died before the fall. In any case, there can be no contradiction between the truths of the faith and the truths known through the natural sciences. [/quote] I agree, but that does not mean that one is free to reject the traditional teaching on the connection between natural corruption and the ancestral sin. That said, it is important to note that nothing created is immortal in itself, but only through the gift of God's grace, who alone is immortal by nature. In other words, mortality is natural, both to man and to animals, and so the mortality of creatures prior to the creation of man may be proleptically connected to man's fall from grace, since God intended for man to be the steward of creation from all eternity. Edited November 15, 2009 by Apotheoun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OraProMe Posted November 15, 2009 Share Posted November 15, 2009 [quote name='KnightofChrist' date='14 November 2009 - 06:59 PM' timestamp='1258243161' post='2002891'] The suffering caused by Katrina was a chastisement. [/quote] That's so foul. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Didymus Posted November 15, 2009 Share Posted November 15, 2009 (edited) [quote name='OraProMe' date='14 November 2009 - 09:50 PM' timestamp='1258253453' post='2003017'] That's so foul. [/quote] That's somewhat out of context. You just took the first sentence and it was the rest of the quote that qualified it. [quote name='KnightofChrist' date='14 November 2009 - 06:59 PM' timestamp='1258243161' post='2002891'] The suffering caused by Katrina was a chastisement. Wars and natural disasters are chastisements [i]because of the sin of Man. Before the fall of man death did not exist for man. Wars and natural disasters are effects of the fall.[/i] [/quote] anyways, it appears that the topic has gone a bit awry with the dino debate Edited November 15, 2009 by Didymus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paddington Posted November 15, 2009 Share Posted November 15, 2009 Would anybody here prefer to be in Hell to non-existence? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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