dominicansoul Posted November 13, 2009 Share Posted November 13, 2009 [quote name='Era Might' date='12 November 2009 - 08:55 PM' timestamp='1258077357' post='2001595'] I would say that degrees of murder deal with motivation in the act itself. That is, to what extent the person intended to commit the acts they commited. That kind of motivation is different from ideological motivation. "Hate crimes" are based on ideological motivation. [/quote] so, you are saying that the courts won't take into consideration his contacting Al Quada...??? ...that his ties to the radical imam, or the fact that his religion was his motivation...none of that matters at all? Wow. His lawyer is going to have a field day. hasan will get off on insanity for sure... I heard on the news today that his lawyer was very upset that they are leveling charges against him without him being present...yeesh! and also...they are seriously considering charging him with a 14th count of murder because of the unborn baby... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jesus_lol Posted November 13, 2009 Share Posted November 13, 2009 [quote name='HisChildForever' date='12 November 2009 - 03:17 PM' timestamp='1258067860' post='2001485'] [b] soldier back from Iraq, who objected to Hasan's faith and ripped a bumper sticker off the major's car that said: "Allah is Love." Hasan didn't seem too upset by his scratched vehicle, even though it was damaged so badly that he got a new one.[/b] [/quote] wow, that soldiers hands truly are weapons if he can total a car by ripping off a bumpersticker, dang! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MIKolbe Posted November 13, 2009 Share Posted November 13, 2009 [quote name='dominicansoul' date='12 November 2009 - 10:02 PM' timestamp='1258077756' post='2001602'] and also...they are seriously considering charging him with a 14th count of murder because of the unborn baby... [/quote] they did that with Scott Peterson too... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dominicansoul Posted November 13, 2009 Share Posted November 13, 2009 [quote name='Jesus_lol' date='12 November 2009 - 09:03 PM' timestamp='1258077825' post='2001604'] wow, that soldiers hands truly are weapons if he can total a car by ripping off a bumpersticker, dang! [/quote] American soldiers are tough, but they can't stop bullets from one of their own... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Era Might Posted November 13, 2009 Share Posted November 13, 2009 [quote name='dominicansoul' date='12 November 2009 - 09:02 PM' timestamp='1258077756' post='2001602'] so, you are saying that the courts won't take into consideration his contacting Al Quada...??? ...that his ties to the radical imam, or the fact that his religion was his motivation...none of that matters at all? Wow. His lawyer is going to have a field day. hasan will get off on insanity for sure...[/quote] When I say "ideology," I mean beliefs. If you contact Al Quaeda, then that probably goes beyond ideology. If he contacted Al Quaeda, then presumably the court will consider that as getting involved with a terrorist group. The court's concern will be with whether he contacted a terrorist group, not whether he contacted an *Islamic* terrorist group. The group's ideology is not the court's concern. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dominicansoul Posted November 13, 2009 Share Posted November 13, 2009 [quote name='MIkolbe' date='12 November 2009 - 09:04 PM' timestamp='1258077856' post='2001605'] they did that with Scott Peterson too... [/quote] I'm almost tempted to say that it is a certainty that they will charge him with the 14th count...but it will be a little different, whereas, the charges for the 13 murdered are "pre-meditated" while, he may have had no idea one of his victims was pregnant, so the 14th count may not be considered as "pre-meditated..." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dominicansoul Posted November 13, 2009 Share Posted November 13, 2009 [quote name='Era Might' date='12 November 2009 - 09:06 PM' timestamp='1258078017' post='2001611'] When I say "ideology," I mean beliefs. If you contact Al Quaeda, then that probably goes beyond ideology. If he contacted Al Quaeda, then presumably the court will consider that as contacting a terrorist group. The court's concern will be with whether he contacted a terrorist group, not whether he contacted an *Islamic* terrorist group. The group's ideology is not the court's concern. [/quote] oh...i understand where you are coming from now...that sounds reasonable... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HisChildForever Posted November 13, 2009 Share Posted November 13, 2009 [quote name='Era Might' date='12 November 2009 - 09:06 PM' timestamp='1258078017' post='2001611'] The court's concern will be with whether he contacted a terrorist group, not whether he contacted an *Islamic* terrorist group. [/quote] They certainly will be concerned, if they want to get a full understanding of the defendant and the crime. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Era Might Posted November 13, 2009 Share Posted November 13, 2009 [quote name='HisChildForever' date='12 November 2009 - 09:11 PM' timestamp='1258078291' post='2001618'] They certainly will be concerned, if they want to get a full understanding of the defendant and the crime. [/quote] He will not be charged with being a Muslim, or even with being an "Islamic Fascist." The court may be concerned with his religion/ideology as a tangential matter of evidence (e.g., maybe it would give a motive as to why he might contact a terrorist group), but his religion/ideology will not be on trial. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightofChrist Posted November 13, 2009 Share Posted November 13, 2009 [quote name='Era Might' date='12 November 2009 - 08:55 PM' timestamp='1258077357' post='2001595'] That kind of motivation is different from ideological motivation. [/quote] No it isn't. His motivation for mass murder was his ideology. Timothy McVeigh's motivation for mass murder was also his ideology. A key factor in this case how ever is the on going war with Islamic Fascism. [quote name='Era Might' date='12 November 2009 - 08:55 PM' timestamp='1258077357' post='2001595']"Hate crimes" are based on ideological motivation. [/quote] The real problem with "Hate Crime" Laws is that they give unequal justice and punishment for the [b]same[/b] crime. Again the key factor is that we are at war with Islamic Terrorist, or that they are at war with us does change things. However, had we been at war with communist terrorists or whatever. And Major Hasan was was sympathetic to their ideology, and their ideology was equal in gravity, then that version of Major Hasan should have the same punishment as he will receive for crimes he committed as a Islamic Terrorist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dominicansoul Posted November 13, 2009 Share Posted November 13, 2009 am I understanding correctly...courts do not look upon the religion but more so the extremist beliefs that motivated the person for doing said crime...??? But is that what happens in the court cases of so-called Christians who bomb abortion clinics and kill abortion doctors? OR in those cases, does their ideology factor in??? I know this may be a little off topic...but I'm really interested in knowing...how courts can keep out a person's skewed beliefs and ideologies when it is the primary motivation of the crime... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Era Might Posted November 13, 2009 Share Posted November 13, 2009 [quote name='KnightofChrist' date='12 November 2009 - 09:19 PM' timestamp='1258078744' post='2001625'] No it isn't. His motivation for mass murder was his ideology. Timothy McVeigh's motivation for mass murder was also his ideology. A key factor in this case how ever is the on going war with Islamic Fascism.[/quote] Timothy McVeigh's ideology was also, presumably, irrelevant to his court case. What was McVeigh found guilty of? I doubt that he was found guilty of holding any specific ideology. He was probably found guilty of the acts he committed. [quote]The real problem with "Hate Crime" Laws is that they give unequal justice and punishment for the [b]same[/b] crime. Again the key factor is that we are at war with Islamic Terrorist, or that they are at war with us does change things. However, had we been at war with communist terrorists or whatever. And Major Hasan was was sympathetic to their ideology, and their ideology was equal in gravity, then that version of Major Hasan should have the same punishment as he will receive for crimes he committed as a Islamic Terrorist. [/quote] Major Hasan would not be tried for being an "Islamic terrorist." He would be tried for being a "terrorist." If there is no difference in the punishments for different ideological terrorists, then that goes to show that ideology is irrelevant to those court cases. The accused persons are not being tried for their ideologies; rather, they are being tried for terrorism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightofChrist Posted November 13, 2009 Share Posted November 13, 2009 [quote name='Era Might' date='12 November 2009 - 09:06 PM' timestamp='1258078017' post='2001611'] When I say "ideology," I mean beliefs. If you contact Al Quaeda, then that probably goes beyond ideology. If he contacted Al Quaeda, then presumably the court will consider that as getting involved with a terrorist group. The court's concern will be with whether he contacted a terrorist group, not whether he contacted an *Islamic* terrorist group. The group's ideology is not the court's concern. [/quote] Al Quaeda's ideology can not be separated from who they are as terrorist. There ideology is why they are terrorist. Any terrorist group's ideology is why they are terrorist. The court should be concerned with that ideology if it was the motivation, be it Islamic, or what have you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Era Might Posted November 13, 2009 Share Posted November 13, 2009 [quote name='KnightofChrist' date='12 November 2009 - 09:27 PM' timestamp='1258079241' post='2001636'] Al Quaeda's ideology can not be separated from who they are as terrorist. There ideology is why they are terrorist. Any terrorist group's ideology is why they are terrorist. The court should be concerned with that ideology if it was the motivation, be it Islamic, or what have you. [/quote] "Terrorism" is what a person would be charged with. They would not be charged with holding an ideology. Presumably, when Major Hasan is put on trial, the word "Islamic" will not appear in the charges against him. The word "terrorist" may appear in the charges, but not the word "Islamic." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightofChrist Posted November 13, 2009 Share Posted November 13, 2009 [quote name='Era Might' date='12 November 2009 - 09:24 PM' timestamp='1258079082' post='2001631'] Timothy McVeigh's ideology was also, presumably, irrelevant to his court case. [/quote] Not from what I recall. His anti-government ideology was his motivation. And that motivation was important to the court case. [quote name='Era Might' date='12 November 2009 - 09:24 PM' timestamp='1258079082' post='2001631']What was McVeigh found guilty of? I doubt that he was found guilty of holding any specific ideology. He was probably found guilty of the acts he committed.[/quote] His ideolgy was his motivation which was used to convict him of multiply counts of murder. [quote name='Era Might' date='12 November 2009 - 09:24 PM' timestamp='1258079082' post='2001631']there is no difference in the punishments for different ideological terrorists, [/quote] Yes. [quote name='Era Might' date='12 November 2009 - 09:24 PM' timestamp='1258079082' post='2001631']then that goes to show that ideology is irrelevant to those court cases. [/quote] No. If ideology is the motivation then it CANNOT be irrelevant, because it would make the motivation also irrelevant. [quote name='Era Might' date='12 November 2009 - 09:24 PM' timestamp='1258079082' post='2001631']They are not being tried for their ideologies; rather, they are being tried for terrorism. [/quote] They are being tried for acts of terror, and their ideologies are used to convect them because it is their motivation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now