Fort Hood Suspect Charged With Murder

[Era Might]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' date='12 November 2009 - 07:37 PM' timestamp='1258072631' post='2001531']
Being a Islamic Fascist, ie a member or sympathizer of a Terror Group(s) is a crime of some sort. Do you actually believe someone who is a member or sympathizer of Al qaeda or a like group is not breaking some type of law? For this man his acts are acts of treason and terror. His motivation was Islamic Radicalism.
[/quote]
Do you believe that "sympathizers" with Al Qaeda, who only sympathize in ideology, but have not committed any criminal acts, can be put in prison? I'm not aware of any laws in the United States that criminalize thoughts/opinions/ideology.

If a person hates the United States and wants it to be destroyed, can the government put them in prison merely for that belief, without that person having committed any criminal act?

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='Era Might' date='12 November 2009 - 07:42 PM' timestamp='1258072936' post='2001534']
Do you believe that "sympathizers" with Al Qaeda, who only sympathize in ideology, but have not committed any criminal acts, can be put in prison? I'm not aware of any laws in the United States that criminalize thoughts/opinions/ideology.

If a person hates the United States and wants it to be destroyed, can the government put them in prison merely for that belief, without that person having committed any criminal act?
[/quote]

They can be put in prison for conspiracy (if, of course, there is evidence for this).

[Era Might]

[quote name='HisChildForever' date='12 November 2009 - 07:46 PM' timestamp='1258073184' post='2001538']
They can be put in prison for conspiracy (if, of course, there is evidence for this).
[/quote]
Conspiracy is an act. I'm referring solely to ideology. I'm assuming that the hypothetical person has not committed any criminal act, but they do believe in an ideology. For example, if a person says publicly, "I support Al Quaeda in ideology," can they be put in prison for that? I don't think they can be put in prison for that.

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='Era Might' date='12 November 2009 - 07:42 PM' timestamp='1258072936' post='2001534']
Do you believe that "sympathizers" with Al Qaeda, who only sympathize in ideology, but have not committed any criminal acts, can be put in prison? I'm not aware of any laws in the United States that criminalize thoughts/opinions/ideology.

If a person hates the United States and wants it to be destroyed, can the government put them in prison merely for that belief, without that person having committed any criminal act?
[/quote]

To put this in perspective lets pretend it's 1941 and you asked "Do you believe that "sympathizers" with the Nazis, who only sympathize in ideology, but have not committed any criminal acts, can be put in prison?

My answer then and my answer now is yes, so long as there is evidence, because sedition is a crime.

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='Era Might' date='12 November 2009 - 07:51 PM' timestamp='1258073514' post='2001539']
Conspiracy is an act. I'm referring solely to ideology. I'm assuming that the hypothetical person has not committed any criminal act, but they do believe in an ideology. For example, if a person says publicly, "I support Al Quaeda in ideology," can they be put in prison for that? I don't think they can be put in prison for that.
[/quote]

That ideology is the destruction and down fail of the American Government, her people and the mass murder of those who will not become the terrorists version of Islamic.

Edited November 13, 2009 by KnightofChrist

[Era Might]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' date='12 November 2009 - 07:54 PM' timestamp='1258073689' post='2001540']
To put this in perspective lets pretend it's 1941 and you asked "Do you believe that "sympathizers" with the Nazis, who only sympathize in ideology, but have not committed any criminal acts, can be put in prison?

My answer then and my answer now is yes, so long as there is evidence, because sedition is a crime.
[/quote]
You are essentially saying that the US government can imprison people for their beliefs. I don't see how this is in accord with the US Constitution. And I would be curious to see the exact laws that criminalize ideology, because I am not aware of any.

[dominicansoul]

I find it amazing that everyone tip toes around calling this guy a terrorist just because he's a muslim...had he been a white Christian man, the media would have crucified our beliefs and our values in a matter of a 60 second news brief...
let's quit playing dumb and see this for what it really is...another islamic extremist murdered American Soldiers in an act against America and in support of everything Al Quaeda stands for...for those who feel it is petty to concentrate on this rather than focusing on those who died, I feel we do a terrible injustice to those killed if we continue to ignore the obvious reasons why they were massacred...

...this is another 9/11 that could have been prevented, had those in authority not been afraid of being politically incorrect...

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='Era Might' date='12 November 2009 - 07:58 PM' timestamp='1258073888' post='2001542']
You are essentially saying that the US government can imprison people for their beliefs. I don't see how this is in accord with the Constitution. And I would be curious to see the exact laws that criminalize ideology, because I am not aware of any.
[/quote]

No Sir that is not what I am saying. I am saying that cooperation with the Enemy in a time of war is a act of treason and sedition which are indeed crimes, laws which are completely Constitution.

The term that must be defined here is "belief", what do you mean by that exactly? Belief could be writings and speech. They could not speak or write about their Terrorist Ideology because that would encourage others to commit acts of terror. Because that is sedition.

Edited November 13, 2009 by KnightofChrist

[Era Might]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' date='12 November 2009 - 08:07 PM' timestamp='1258074458' post='2001550']
No Sir that is not what I am saying. I am saying that cooperation with the Enemy in a time of war is a act of treason and sedition which are indeed crimes, laws which are completely Constitution.

The term that must be defined here is "belief", what do you mean by that exactly? Belief could be writings and speech. They could not speak or write about their Terrorist Ideology because that would encourage others to commit acts of terror. Because that is sedition.
[/quote]
Who defines the "enemy," and what is "cooperation with the enemy"? Are Americans required to agree with the government's definition of "enemies"? Are Americans required to oppose the ideologies which the government opposes? If an American believes that the government is involved in an unjust war, and that American believes that the other country is right to defend itself, can that American be punished as a traitor? These are general questions, I'm not asking them of any specific situation.

Anyway, this discussion is pretty much off topic, though I think it's related in a roundabout way. Just to get back to my original point, there is no law against being an "Islamic Fascist." A terrorist is a terrorist, regardless of his ideology. As far as I am aware, there is no separate law for "Islamic terrorists" than for any other terrorists. The courts are concerned with whether a person has committed terrorist acts; the courts are not concerned with the ideologies that motivated those acts. If we start focusing on ideological motivation in court cases, then we will be reinforcing the idea of "hate laws."

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='Era Might' date='12 November 2009 - 08:14 PM' timestamp='1258074896' post='2001553']
Who is the "enemy," and what is "cooperation with the enemy"? Are Americans now required to agree with the government's definition of "enemies"? Are Americans now required to oppose the ideologies which the government opposes? If I believe that the government is involved in an unjust war, and I support the other country's right to defend itself, am I a traitor?[/quote]


What the h### are you talking about? I am talking about Islamic Fascist Ideology do you understand what that is at all? It is nothing close to what you may or may not believe. Islamic Fascist Ideology is the complete destruction of the United States, the birth of a World Wide Islamic Order and the death of any one that does not agree with the Islamic Fascist Ideology.

[quote name='Era Might' date='12 November 2009 - 08:14 PM' timestamp='1258074896' post='2001553']Just to get back to my original point, there is no law against being an "Islamic Fascist."[/quote]

There is a ongoing war with Islamic Fascist, which means they are the enemies of the United States, but that is unimportant to many these days.

[quote name='Era Might' date='12 November 2009 - 08:14 PM' timestamp='1258074896' post='2001553']A terrorist is a terrorist, regardless of his ideology. [/quote]

A terrorist is a terrorist, but ideology is very important because it is the motivation.

[quote name='Era Might' date='12 November 2009 - 08:14 PM' timestamp='1258074896' post='2001553']As far as I am aware, there is no separate law for "Islamic terrorists" than for any other terrorists. [/quote]

I have not said that there is a separate law. I have said we are currently in a ongoing war with Islamic Fascist. And they will continue to fight even if we stop or deny the reality of this war.


[quote name='Era Might' date='12 November 2009 - 08:14 PM' timestamp='1258074896' post='2001553']The courts are concerned with whether a person has committed terrorist acts; the courts are not concerned with the ideologies that motivated those acts.
[/quote]

Courts are very concerned about motivation. Not being able to show motivation for a crime has at times allowed the accused to go free.

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='Era Might' date='12 November 2009 - 08:14 PM' timestamp='1258074896' post='2001553']
Who defines the "enemy," [/quote]

The enemy, which in realition to this topic is Islamic Fascist who's ideology calls for the destruction of the Untied States.

[quote name='Era Might' date='12 November 2009 - 08:14 PM' timestamp='1258074896' post='2001553']and what is "cooperation with the enemy"?
[/quote]

Acts that Major Hasan committed before he committed mass murder. Examples such as his visiting and posting on Islamic Terrorist websites, not a crime? What if he had instead visited and posted on child pornography websites that would be a crime.

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='Era Might' date='12 November 2009 - 08:14 PM' timestamp='1258074896' post='2001553']
A terrorist is a terrorist, regardless of his ideology. As far as I am aware, there is no separate law for "Islamic terrorists" than for any other terrorists. The courts are concerned with whether a person has committed terrorist acts; the courts are not concerned with the ideologies that motivated those acts. If we start focusing on ideological motivation in court cases, then we will be reinforcing the idea of "hate laws."
[/quote]

Of course the courts are concerned with the ideology! If you do not know the ideology, how can you expect to prevent further attacks from occurring? Do you REALLY believe that all terrorists are the same?

[Era Might]

[quote name='HisChildForever' date='12 November 2009 - 08:37 PM' timestamp='1258076253' post='2001569']
Of course the courts are concerned with the ideology! If you do not know the ideology, how can you expect to prevent further attacks from occurring? Do you REALLY believe that all terrorists are the same?
[/quote]
It is not the court's job to "prevent further attacks from occuring." The court is there to determine the accused's innocence or guilt for the crimes with which he is charged. The court is not there to pass judgment on a person's ideology.

[dominicansoul]

[quote name='Era Might' date='12 November 2009 - 08:42 PM' timestamp='1258076565' post='2001577']
It is not the court's job to "prevent further attacks from occuring." The court is there to determine the accused's innocence or guilt for the crimes with which he is charged. The court is not there to pass judgment on a person's ideology.
[/quote]
...then why is there a difference in degrees of murder, if courts do not take into account a person's motivation? In this case, his ideology is his motivation...

[Era Might]

[quote name='dominicansoul' date='12 November 2009 - 08:52 PM' timestamp='1258077165' post='2001587']
...then why is there a difference in degrees of murder, if courts do not take into account a person's motivation? In this case, his ideology is his motivation...
[/quote]
I would say that degrees of murder deal with motivation in the act itself. That is, to what extent the person intended to commit the act they committed. That kind of motivation is different from ideological motivation. "Hate crimes" are based on ideological motivation.