Fort Hood Suspect Charged With Murder

[zunshynn]

[quote name='HisChildForever' date='12 November 2009 - 04:25 PM' timestamp='1258068326' post='2001487']
I'm very impressed that it only took you three minutes to read my post (including the five minute video).

Just because all terrorists are not religiously motivated does not mean that THIS terrorist was not religiously motivated. The proof is right in front of your face.
[/quote]

I never said that this terrorist was not religiously motivated. However, you stated that you had no doubt that he was a terrorist (not arguing with you there) and only followed with a list of things he has done that would lead one to believe his acts of violence were religiously motivated (again... not arguing with that). But those things don't make him a terrorist. The whole going on a murderous rampage, regardless of his motivation, is what makes him a terrorist. A person could be a terrorist and have no religious sensibilities at all, or have some religious sensibilities which are not behind their violent actions.

Of course there is reason to examine motives behind terrorist acts. But I think there's a serious mistake in concluding that someone is a terrorist because of their beliefs. There has been a tendency since 9-11 to conclude that acts of violence are acts of terrorism when they are motivated by religious beliefs, but those really is two different things. The way your post was phrased made it sound like you consider him a terrorist primarily because of his motivation.

I had already seen the video, by the way, and I read fairly quickly (the fact that it was large and bold helped), but that doesn't mean I read negligently.

[Era Might]

[quote name='HisChildForever' date='12 November 2009 - 06:45 PM' timestamp='1258069502' post='2001496']
Then I am interested in hearing your opinion of the information I have provided, as well as your personal explanation. Other than "I don't," of course.
[/quote]
I guess I don't see the relevance of whether or not he was motivated by religion (that is, I don't see the relevance of it to his court case). Supposing that he was motivated by his religion: what difference does that make to his court case?

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='zunshynn' date='12 November 2009 - 06:45 PM' timestamp='1258069534' post='2001499']
But I think there's a serious mistake in concluding that someone is a terrorist because of their beliefs. [/quote]

[quote] There has been a tendency since 9-11 to conclude that acts of violence are acts of terrorism when they are motivated by religious beliefs, but those really is two different things. [/quote]

Really? Then how do you explain Al-Qaeda, a terrorist group that is motivated by its religion?

[b]Al-Qaeda is an international terrorist network led by Osama bin Laden. It seeks to rid Muslim countries of what it sees as the profane influence of the West and replace their governments with fundamentalist Islamic regimes.[/b]

http://www.cfr.org/publication/9126/

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='Era Might' date='12 November 2009 - 06:48 PM' timestamp='1258069688' post='2001500']
I guess I don't see the relevance of whether or not he was motivated by religion (that is, I don't see the relevance of it to his court case). Supposing that he was motivated by his religion: what difference does that make to his court case?
[/quote]

He would be tried as a terrorist.

This is a good article:

[b]Evidence of a terrorist link to the Fort Hood massacre mounted yesterday with reports that US intelligence officials knew for months before the shooting that Major Nidal Malik Hasan had been trying to contact figures associated with al-Qaeda.[/b]

*

[b]The disclosure was seized upon by senior congressional figures angered by indications that the CIA may have withheld vital information from the army and Congress’s own intelligence and security committees. It followed a demand from Senator Joseph Lieberman for a high-level investigation into what he called “very, very strong signs that Dr Hasan had become an Islamist extremist” — signs that include apparent ties to Anwar al-Awlaki, an American-born cleric who moved to Yemen after the September 11, 2001, attacks and who called Major Hasan “a hero” yesterday.

If a link between Major Hasan and international extremists were proven, it would make the killings on the Texas army base the first terrorist attack on US soil since 2001. It would also provide a focus for critics of the Obama Administration trying to build a case that the President is less single-minded about national security than was his predecessor.[/b]

Link: http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/us_and_americas/article6910273.ece

[onathing1]

[quote name='Era Might' date='12 November 2009 - 07:48 PM' timestamp='1258069688' post='2001500']
I guess I don't see the relevance of whether or not he was motivated by religion (that is, I don't see the relevance of it to his court case). Supposing that he was motivated by his religion: what difference does that make to his court case?
[/quote]


You're right. Him being 'motivated' by his religion will not make any difference in his court case and in his sentencing. You can look at all of the cult killings that were also supposedly motivated by religion; it did not make any difference in their court cases and convictions. Tack on him being what the FBI considers a MASS murderer, him being "religious" will not matter at all.

[Era Might]

[quote name='HisChildForever' date='12 November 2009 - 06:59 PM' timestamp='1258070351' post='2001507']
He would be tried as a terrorist.[/quote]
But a terrorist is a terrorist, whether they are motivated by religion, politics, etc.

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='Era Might' date='12 November 2009 - 07:01 PM' timestamp='1258070485' post='2001509']
But being a "terrorist" has nothing to do with a person's religion. A terrorist is a terrorist, whether they are motivated by religion, politics, etc.
[/quote]

No one is arguing that. I am saying that in this particular case, he would be tried as a terrorist if the politically correct liberals acknowledged Islam as his motivation.

[Era Might]

[quote name='HisChildForever' date='12 November 2009 - 07:04 PM' timestamp='1258070695' post='2001512']
No one is arguing that. I am saying that in this particular case, he would be tried as a terrorist if the politically correct liberals acknowledged Islam as his motivation.
[/quote]
I don't think that having Islam as his motivation would make him a terrorist. What would make him a terrorist would be acts of terrorism. A person can kill another person for religious reasons without being a "terrorist."

What worries me is that in trying to determine a possible religious motivation, we will reinforce the idea of "hate crimes."

[zunshynn]

[quote name='HisChildForever' date='12 November 2009 - 04:52 PM' timestamp='1258069945' post='2001503']
Really? Then how do you explain Al-Qaeda, a terrorist group that is motivated by its religion?

[b]Al-Qaeda is an international terrorist network led by Osama bin Laden. It seeks to rid Muslim countries of what it sees as the profane influence of the West and replace their governments with fundamentalist Islamic regimes.[/b]

http://www.cfr.org/publication/9126/
[/quote]

What's your point? There's nothing to "explain" about Al-Qaeda being a terrorist group motivated by it's religion. They are a terrorist group. They are motivated by religion. But they are not terrorists "because" they are motivated by religion. They are terrorists because of what they do, not because of why they do it.

A secular terrorist group are terrorists for the same reason. Because of the systematic violence that they carry out, not because of whatever reasoning they have behind it. FARC-EP in Columbia, for example, is not a terrorist group because of what they believe in, but because they systematically murder, kidnap and torture innocent people.

Edited November 13, 2009 by zunshynn

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='Era Might' date='12 November 2009 - 07:11 PM' timestamp='1258071069' post='2001517']
I don't think that having Islam as his motivation would make him a terrorist. What would make him a terrorist would be acts of terrorism. A person can kill another person for religious reasons without being a "terrorist."

What worries me is that in trying to determine his "motivation," we will be furthering the idea of "hate crimes."
[/quote]

Islamic Fascism as his [i]motivation[/i] would make him a Islamic terrorist, such as groups like Al Qaeda. His being a Islamic Fascist/Terrorist would make him an enemy of the United States and a traitor.

Edited November 13, 2009 by KnightofChrist

[Era Might]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' date='12 November 2009 - 07:19 PM' timestamp='1258071543' post='2001520']
Islam Fascism as his motivation would make him a Islamic terrorist, such as groups like Al Qaeda. His being a Islamic Fascist/Terrorist would make him an enemy of the United States and a traitor.
[/quote]
Being an "Islamic Fascist" is not considered a crime, as far as I know. Suppose that he believes in "Islamic Fascism," but did not commit any crimes based on those beliefs. Would the government put him in prison for his beliefs? I don't think so. Thus, in determining whether he will charged as a terrorist, the ideological motivation for his acts would be irrelevant to his court case. The only relevant question for the court is whether he committed acts of terrorism, not whether those acts were based on "Islamic Fascism" or any other ideology.

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='zunshynn' date='12 November 2009 - 07:13 PM' timestamp='1258071193' post='2001518']
What's your point? There's nothing to "explain" about Al-Qaeda being a terrorist group motivated by it's religion. They are a terrorist group. They are motivated by religion. But they are not terrorists "because" they are motivated by religion. They are terrorists because of what they do, not because of why they do it. [/quote]


What are you talking about? The Islamic Terrorist are motivated by religion to be terrorist, bu there not terrorists "because" they are motivated by religion? What you're saying makes no sense. They are terrorist because of what they do and why they do it.

[quote name='zunshynn' date='12 November 2009 - 07:13 PM' timestamp='1258071193' post='2001518']A secular terrorist group are terrorists for the same reason. Because of the systematic violence that they carry out, not because of whatever reasoning they have behind it. FARC-EP in Columbia, for example, is not a terrorist group because of what they believe in, but because they systematically murder, kidnap and torture innocent people.
[/quote]

I would also point out a secular terrorist should be tried just as any other terrorist. The victims of Islamic Terrorist should not receive more justice than victims of any other kind of terrorist. That is what is forgotten in "hate crime" laws.

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='zunshynn' date='12 November 2009 - 07:13 PM' timestamp='1258071193' post='2001518']
They are terrorists because of what they do, not because of why they do it.
[/quote]

What a ridiculous statement.

[quote name='KnightofChrist' date='12 November 2009 - 07:19 PM' timestamp='1258071543' post='2001520']
Islamic Fascism as his [i]motivation[/i] would make him a Islamic terrorist, such as groups like Al Qaeda. His being a Islamic Fascist/Terrorist would make him an enemy of the United States and a traitor.
[/quote]

EXACTLY!!! Glad to see someone else on here gets it.

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='Era Might' date='12 November 2009 - 07:24 PM' timestamp='1258071862' post='2001525']
Being an "Islamic Fascist" is not considered a crime, as far as I know. Suppose that he believes in "Islamic Fascism," but did not commit any crimes based on those beliefs. Would the government put him in prison for his beliefs? I don't think so. Thus, in determining whether he will charged as a terrorist, the motivation for his acts would be irrelevant to his court case. The only relevant question for the court is whether he committed acts of terrorism, not whether those acts were based on "Islamic Fascism" or any other ideology.
[/quote]

Being a Islamic Fascist, ie a member or sympathizer of a Terror Group(s) is a crime of some sort. Do you actually believe someone who is a member or sympathizer of Al qaeda or a like group is not breaking some type of law? For this man his acts are acts of treason and terror. His motivation was Islamic Radicalism.

[CatherineM]

Just from a litigation point of view, I doubt the presiding judge advocate will allow his religion to be mentioned in court because unfortunately that would be viewed as intentionally inflaming the jury against the defendant because of his religion rather than the acts he is accused of committing.

I'm sure prosecutors are allowed to discuss the religion of priests accused of sexual abuse, or a pro-life person on trial for trespassing or worse, but it doesn't work the other direction.