Ecumenism Revisted

[mortify]

[img]http://www.fma.ie/images/pope_benedict_ecumenism_2.jpg[/img]

[u]From the Catechism:[/u]
[color="#0000FF"]819 "Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth"273 are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: "the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements."274 Christ's Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as [color="#FF0000"]means of salvation[/color], whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him,275 and are in themselves calls to "Catholic unity."276[/color]

[u]Questions:[/u]
(1) In what way are non-Catholic churches and ecclesial communities a means of salvation? Is it by directing souls to Catholicism, or do they really contain salvation independent of the visible Church?

(2) What is the "unity" Catholics and non-Catholics are called to? Is it another word for bringing souls into Catholicism, since true unity is found *in* the visible Church, or is it a unity that permits those visibly outside to remain outside?


Thanks

[Dave]

[quote name='mortify' date='12 November 2009 - 01:54 AM' timestamp='1258005283' post='2001160']
[img]http://www.fma.ie/images/pope_benedict_ecumenism_2.jpg[/img]

[u]From the Catechism:[/u]
[color="#0000FF"]819 "Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth"273 are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: "the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements."274 Christ's Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as [color="#FF0000"]means of salvation[/color], whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him,275 and are in themselves calls to "Catholic unity."276[/color]

[u]Questions:[/u]
(1) In what way are non-Catholic churches and ecclesial communities a means of salvation? Is it by directing souls to Catholicism, or do they really contain salvation independent of the visible Church?

(2) What is the "unity" Catholics and non-Catholics are called to? Is it another word for bringing souls into Catholicism, since true unity is found *in* the visible Church, or is it a unity that permits those visibly outside to remain outside?


Thanks
[/quote]

1. While non-Catholic churches and ecclesial communities have a lot of false teachings, they also contain true teachings (and whatever true teachings they do have are teachings that the Catholic Church has anyhow). Non-Catholic religions aren't salvific in themselves. Thus, if a non-Catholic is saved, it's BECAUSE of Christ and His Church, never in spite of it. Yet, for all the errors non-Catholic religions have, we shouldn't overlook the fact that they do have some truths (some more than others). And the truths they do have can potentially help guide people to the full truth found only in Catholicism. So I'd say that non-Catholic faiths are means of salvation insofar as they help lead people to Catholicism.

2. The unity Catholics and non-Catholics are called to is definitely bringing souls into Catholicism so that there may finally be one flock under one shepherd.

[goldenchild17]

[quote name='mortify' date='11 November 2009 - 11:54 PM' timestamp='1258005283' post='2001160']
[img]http://www.fma.ie/images/pope_benedict_ecumenism_2.jpg[/img]

[u]From the Catechism:[/u]
[color="#0000FF"]819 "Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth"273 are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: "the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements."274 Christ's Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as [color="#FF0000"]means of salvation[/color], whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him,275 and are in themselves calls to "Catholic unity."276[/color]

[u]Questions:[/u]
(1) In what way are non-Catholic churches and ecclesial communities a means of salvation? Is it by directing souls to Catholicism, or do they really contain salvation independent of the visible Church?[/quote]

I'll just address the first question as to how I'm beginning to come to terms with it...

One example: The sacrament of baptism is valid within many non-Catholic communities. [b]Denzinger 2304[/b]:

"To this Supreme Sacred Congregation ... the question has been proposed:

"Whether, in judging matrimonial cases, baptism conferred in the sects of the Disciples of Christ, the Presbyterians, Congregationalists, Baptists, Methodists, when the necessary matter and form have been used, is to be presumed as invalid because of the lack of the required intention in the minister of doing what the Church does, or what Christ instituted or whether it is to be presumed as valid unless in a particular case it is proven to the contrary." The reply: In the negative to the first part; in the affirmative to the second."

and St. Thomas Aquinas explains [[b]S.T. III, Q. 64, Art. 8, reply obj. 2[/b]] that the minister of a sacrament expresses the intention of the Church in the words he utters in conferring the sacrament, and that "this suffices for the validity of the sacrament, except the contrary be expressed on the part either of the minister or of the recipient of the sacrament."

"if his faith be defective in regard to the very sacrament that he confers, although he believe that no inward effect is caused by the thing done outwardly, yet he does know that the Catholic Church intends to confer a sacrament by that which is outwardly done. Wherefore, his unbelief notwithstanding, he can intend to do what the Church does, albeit he esteem it to be nothing. And such an intention suffices for a sacrament: because as stated above ([b]A. 8, ad 2[/b]) the minister of a sacrament acts in the person of the Church by whose faith any defect in the minister's faith is made good [[b]Art. 9[/b]].

Especially in the case of infant baptism the recipient truly receives a means to salvation and are truly a member of the Catholic Church, at least until the time where s/he freely chooses to be a member of the non-Catholic religion. These non-Catholic churches, while having the grace which baptism gives, are not the source of the grace. Instead, their power (i.e. ability to be a means to salvation) is derived from the grace of the sacrament as it was entrusted to the Catholic Church alone. So to say that they ARE the means of salvation, I think, is incorrect as the sacrament of baptism that they are performing essentially makes the recipient a member of the Catholic Church (thus the Catholic Church being essentially the source of the grace and salvation which baptism imparts) and as this catechism section points out, the other churches aren't inherently the means of salvation itself, but simply can be used by the Holy Spirit as such. To say that something is used as a means to salvation doesn't equal saying that there is salvation outside the Church. It would simply mean that the salvation itself is in the Catholic Church, and God can use some non-Catholic churches as a way to achieve this salvation (which is in the Catholic Church alone).

Does one evil (heresy etc.) always and completely negate a good (baptism, other grace?)? Not always:

"Good is threefold. One kind of good is wholly destroyed by evil, and this is the good opposed to evil, as light is wholly destroyed by darkness, and sight by blindness. Another kind of good is neither wholly destroyed nor diminished by evil, and that is the good which is the subject of evil; for by darkness the substance of the air is not injured. And there is also a kind of good which is diminished by evil, but is not wholly taken away; and this good is the aptitude of a subject to some actuality [[b]St. Thomas Aquinas, S.T. I, Q. 48, Art. 4[/b]]."

So, not every good is wholly destroyed by evil. The good of the baptism of infants is neither destroyed nor diminished by the evil of heresy held by the one who administers the baptism or the church he belongs to. Validly baptized babies receive the full beneficial effects of baptism and are incorporated into the Catholic Church, DESPITE the evils of the church by which the sacrament came, not BECAUSE of it. But they still receive it, nonetheless.


It is often commented that God will always bring something good out of something bad. It would seem He does so here by using certain non-Catholic churches as a means of salvation, through the grace of Baptism.

Edited November 12, 2009 by goldenchild17

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='goldenchild17' date='12 November 2009 - 03:33 AM' timestamp='1258014790' post='2001204']
I'll just address the first question as to how I'm beginning to come to terms with it...

One example: The sacrament of baptism is valid within many non-Catholic communities. [b]Denzinger 2304[/b]:

"To this Supreme Sacred Congregation ... the question has been proposed:

"Whether, in judging matrimonial cases, baptism conferred in the sects of the Disciples of Christ, the Presbyterians, Congregationalists, Baptists, Methodists, when the necessary matter and form have been used, is to be presumed as invalid because of the lack of the required intention in the minister of doing what the Church does, or what Christ instituted or whether it is to be presumed as valid unless in a particular case it is proven to the contrary." The reply: In the negative to the first part; in the affirmative to the second."

and St. Thomas Aquinas explains [[b]S.T. III, Q. 64, Art. 8, reply obj. 2[/b]] that the minister of a sacrament expresses the intention of the Church in the words he utters in conferring the sacrament, and that "this suffices for the validity of the sacrament, except the contrary be expressed on the part either of the minister or of the recipient of the sacrament."

"if his faith be defective in regard to the very sacrament that he confers, although he believe that no inward effect is caused by the thing done outwardly, yet he does know that the Catholic Church intends to confer a sacrament by that which is outwardly done. Wherefore, his unbelief notwithstanding, he can intend to do what the Church does, albeit he esteem it to be nothing. And such an intention suffices for a sacrament: because as stated above ([b]A. 8, ad 2[/b]) the minister of a sacrament acts in the person of the Church by whose faith any defect in the minister's faith is made good [[b]Art. 9[/b]].

Especially in the case of infant baptism the recipient truly receives a means to salvation and are truly a member of the Catholic Church, at least until the time where s/he freely chooses to be a member of the non-Catholic religion. These non-Catholic churches, while having the grace which baptism gives, are not the source of the grace. Instead, their power (i.e. ability to be a means to salvation) is derived from the grace of the sacrament as it was entrusted to the Catholic Church alone. So to say that they ARE the means of salvation, I think, is incorrect as the sacrament of baptism that they are performing essentially makes the recipient a member of the Catholic Church (thus the Catholic Church being essentially the source of the grace and salvation which baptism imparts) and as this catechism section points out, the other churches aren't inherently the means of salvation itself, but simply can be used by the Holy Spirit as such. To say that something is used as a means to salvation doesn't equal saying that there is salvation outside the Church. It would simply mean that the salvation itself is in the Catholic Church, and God can use some non-Catholic churches as a way to achieve this salvation (which is in the Catholic Church alone).

Does one evil (heresy etc.) always and completely negate a good (baptism, other grace?)? Not always:

"Good is threefold. One kind of good is wholly destroyed by evil, and this is the good opposed to evil, as light is wholly destroyed by darkness, and sight by blindness. Another kind of good is neither wholly destroyed nor diminished by evil, and that is the good which is the subject of evil; for by darkness the substance of the air is not injured. And there is also a kind of good which is diminished by evil, but is not wholly taken away; and this good is the aptitude of a subject to some actuality [[b]St. Thomas Aquinas, S.T. I, Q. 48, Art. 4[/b]]."

So, not every good is wholly destroyed by evil. The good of the baptism of infants is neither destroyed nor diminished by the evil of heresy held by the one who administers the baptism or the church he belongs to. Validly baptized babies receive the full beneficial effects of baptism and are incorporated into the Catholic Church, DESPITE the evils of the church by which the sacrament came, not BECAUSE of it. But they still receive it, nonetheless.


It is often commented that God will always bring something good out of something bad. It would seem He does so here by using certain non-Catholic churches as a means of salvation, through the grace of Baptism.
[/quote]

I agree with this.

[mortify]

This is what I gather so far...

1. Valid baptism unites a person to the Mystical Body of Christ

2. Non-Catholic ecclesial communities can possess valid baptism

3. Those validly baptized in a non-Catholic ecclesial community are united to the Mystical Body

4. Many of these validly baptized persons are not guilty of the sin of separation

5. Such Christians are imperfectly united to the Church

6. The goal of Ecumenism is to bring these souls into full and complete union

7. This union exists in the visible Church of Christ, the Roman Catholic Church

[Veridicus]

[quote name='mortify' date='14 November 2009 - 12:51 AM' timestamp='1258177909' post='2002523']
This is what I gather so far...

1. Valid baptism unites a person to the Mystical Body of Christ

2. Non-Catholic ecclesial communities can possess valid baptism

3. Those validly baptized in a non-Catholic ecclesial community are united to the Mystical Body

4. Many of these validly baptized persons are not guilty of the sin of separation

5. Such Christians are imperfectly united to the Church

6. The goal of Ecumenism is to bring these souls into full and complete union

7. This union exists in the visible Church of Christ, the Roman Catholic Church
[/quote]

That seems like an appopriate summary.

[Apotheoun]

Would simply change point number seven to read as follows:

[quote]7. This union exists in the visible Church of Christ, the Catholic Church.[/quote]

The Catholic Church is composed of twenty-three self-governing Churches, and so not all Catholics are "Roman" Catholic.

[mortify]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='14 November 2009 - 03:11 PM' timestamp='1258229482' post='2002728']
Would simply change point number seven to read as follows:

The Catholic Church is composed of twenty-three self-governing Churches, and so not all Catholics are "Roman" Catholic.
[/quote]

What visibly unites all Catholics is that we share the same faith, the same sacraments, and are under the same authority.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='mortify' date='14 November 2009 - 02:13 PM' timestamp='1258233190' post='2002814']
What visibly unites all Catholics is that we share the same faith, the same sacraments, and are under the same authority.
[/quote]
It is Christ Himself who visibly unites all Catholics, for He is the Lord made man, and I am united to Christ through my Patriarch, as the head of the Melkite Church, just as you are united to Christ through your Patriarch, the bishop of Rome.

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='mortify' date='14 November 2009 - 04:13 PM' timestamp='1258233190' post='2002814']
What visibly unites all Catholics is that we share the same faith, the same sacraments, and are under the same authority.
[/quote]

[goldenchild17]

[quote name='mortify' date='14 November 2009 - 03:13 PM' timestamp='1258233190' post='2002814']
What visibly unites all Catholics is that we share the same faith, the same sacraments, and are under the same authority.
[/quote]

+1 (in spirit)

[mortify]

Is there a document that explicitly states the goal of ecumenism is to bring separated brethern into the Catholic Church?

[goldenchild17]

[quote name='mortify' date='16 November 2009 - 11:48 PM' timestamp='1258436897' post='2004158']
Is there a document that explicitly states the goal of ecumenism is to bring separated brethern into the Catholic Church?
[/quote]

Post vatican II? I'm not certain. I'm not able right now to sit down and look through any of the longer documents, but maybe we could start with this:

Catechism of the Catholic Church in its section on unity and ecumenism:

"822 Concern for achieving unity "involves the whole Church, faithful and clergy alike."287 But we must realize "that this holy objective - [b]the reconciliation of all Christians in the unity of the one and only Church of Christ[/b] - transcends human powers and gifts." That is why we place all our hope "in the prayer of Christ for the Church, in the love of the Father for us, and in the power of the Holy Spirit."

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='mortify' date='17 November 2009 - 12:48 AM' timestamp='1258436897' post='2004158']
Is there a document that explicitly states the goal of ecumenism is to bring separated brethern into the Catholic Church?
[/quote]

What other goal could there possibly be?

[goldenchild17]

I'll probably post some random things as I continue to read more on this subject but here's something interesting. Check out the whole link:

http://www.ewtn.com/library/montfort/Handbook/ecumen.htm

"In UR, the Council Fathers declared that baptized believers in Christ enjoy a certain communion with the Catholic Church, albeit imperfect. They have the right to call themselves Christians and should be looked on as brothers by members of the Catholic Church. Many good things of the Church’s life can exist outside her visible boundaries—the written Word of God, the life of grace, the theological virtues, the gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements (UR 3). At the same time, the council strongly emphasized that the engagement of the Catholic Church in the ecumenical movement did not signify any change in her unique claims. It is in her, the visible society governed by Peter’s successor and the bishops in communion with him, that the one Church of Christ subsists.3 The separated brethren are not blessed with that unity which Christ wished to bestow on the members of his Body. It is through the Catholic Church alone that the fullness of the means of salvation can be obtained (LG 8). Thus Christian unity, [b]the goal of ecumenism, does not mean the construction, through ecclesiastical mergers, of some utopian "new" Church, but rather the gathering of all Christians "into the unity of the one and only Church."[/b] This essential unity will increase until the end of time, but it nevertheless already "subsists in the Catholic Church as something she can never lose."4"