Maximilianus Posted November 16, 2009 Share Posted November 16, 2009 Why am I not surprised you pulled out the "Smedley Butler" card? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaime Posted November 16, 2009 Share Posted November 16, 2009 [quote] What do you think of the logic in the things General Smedley Butler said, hot stuff? [/quote] let's just focus on your illogic Stern. If you honestly don't believe that your freedoms are being protected, then what do you think would happen if we did not have the army, navy, marines, air force and national guard? What do you honestly think would happen if we did not have a defense? Now what would have happened if we had no national defense after the civil war? I am on record for not supporting the invasion in Iraq. But I understand and respect the fact that the armed services are there to protect me and my freedom. And if they weren't there, our country would not exist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sternhauser Posted November 16, 2009 Author Share Posted November 16, 2009 (edited) [quote name='Maximilianus' date='15 November 2009 - 08:05 PM' timestamp='1258329919' post='2003386'] Why am I not surprised you pulled out the "Smedley Butler" card? [/quote] Because it logically and soundly trumps the "I'm in the military, and you don't know what it's all about" card? ~Sternhauser Edited November 16, 2009 by Sternhauser Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Era Might Posted November 16, 2009 Share Posted November 16, 2009 [quote name='J.aime' date='15 November 2009 - 07:11 PM' timestamp='1258330311' post='2003389']I am on record for not supporting the invasion in Iraq. But I understand and respect the fact that the armed services are there to protect me and my freedom. And if they weren't there, our country would not exist. [/quote] I have not followed this thread or gotten involved in this discussion, because it's a lose-lose thread. I knew from the beginning that this thread would not lead anywhere positive. Any criticism of the military is going to be seen as a personal attack on other people, which it does not have to be, but that is how it is going to be seen. That being said, in what I quoted above, J.aime, I think you sum up the problem, as I see it, with the patriotic American view of the military. Americans believe in ideas like "support our troops." They believe that the American military "protects freedom." Now, putting aside whether these slogans are true or helpful, I think that those who even question these ideas are perceived as committing a personal attack on the people who believe in them. Americans will admit that their nation has not been perfect, but ultimately, Americans view their government, and their military, as being a beacon of light in world history. But not everyone sees the American government, or the American military, in such flattering light as Americans do. Not everyone, not even all Americans, believe in the American self-perception, the American "mythos" of itself. There are those who believe in the "American mythos," and those who do not believe in it. And it's difficult to have a conversation when those who would question the American mythos are dismissed out of hand. So, these kinds of topics are best left unsaid, at least on Phatmass, because I would say that most people on Phatmass believe in the American mythos. Those who do not believe in the American mythos are not going to find much openness to questioning that mythos here on Phatmass. I'm not saying that in order to have a discussion, everyone must agree with eachother. But if the participants in the discussion are not willing to accept the legitimacy of questioning the American self-perception, then there is not much of a basis for discussion. So, if I can give you advice Sternhauser, I would suggest not starting these kinds of threads, because there's just not the "soil" on Phatmass for this kind of discussion. People are going to perceive this kind of thread as callous, as disrespectful, etc. And I understand why some people are sensitive about this topic, even though I do not share quite the same sensitivity to these matters. But I think it's best to just not try to discuss these matters on Phatmass, because it will only create hard feelings, without any truly constructive results. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaime Posted November 16, 2009 Share Posted November 16, 2009 [quote name='Era Might' date='15 November 2009 - 07:47 PM' timestamp='1258332434' post='2003407'] I haven't followed this thread or gotten involved in this discussion, because it's a lose-lose thread. I knew from the beginning that this thread would not lead anywhere positive. Any criticism of the military is going to be seen as a personal attack on other people, which it does not have to be, but that is how it is going to be seen. That being said, in what I quoted above, hot stuff, I think you sum up the "problem" with the patriotic American view of the military. Americans believe in ideas like "support our troops." They believe that the American military "protects freedom." Now, putting aside whether these slogans are true or helpful, I think that those who even question these ideas are perceived as committing a personal attack on the people who believe in them. Americans will admit that their nation has not been perfect in history, but ultimately, Americans view their government, and their military, as being a beacon of light in world history. But not everyone sees the American government, or the American military, in such flattering light as Americans do. Not everyone, not even all Americans, believe in the American self-perception, the American "mythos" of itself. There are those who believe in the "American mythos" and those who do not believe in it. And it's difficult to have a conversation when those who would question the American mythos are dismissed out of hand. So, these kinds of topics are best left unsaid, at least on Phatmass, because I would say that most people on Phatmass believe in the American mythos. Those who do not believe in the American mythos are not going to find much openness to questioning that mythos here on Phatmass. I'm not saying that in order to have a discussion, everyone must agree with eachother. But if the participants in the discussion are not willing to accept the legitimacy of questioning the American self-perception, then there is not much of a basis for discussion. So, if I can give you advice Sternhauser, I would suggest not starting these kinds of threads, because there's just not the "soil" on Phatmass for this kind of discussion. People are going to perceive this kind of thread as callous, as disrespectful, etc. And I understand why some people are sensitive about this topic, even though I do not share quite the same sensitivity to these matters. But I think it's best to just not discuss these matters on Phatmass, because it will only create hard feelings, without any truly constructive results. [/quote] I'm about to criticize a mod. If you're going to translate what I'm saying, do it correctly or don't do it at all. Also, let me point out the problem of "Oh I didn't read the thread but I'll comment anyway" makes you look like an idiot. I'll be back in an hour. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paddington Posted November 16, 2009 Share Posted November 16, 2009 [quote name='Maximilianus' date='15 November 2009 - 08:05 PM' timestamp='1258329919' post='2003386'] Why am I not surprised you pulled out the "Smedley Butler" card? [/quote] My dad and many other soldiers have expressed similar concerns. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dominicansoul Posted November 16, 2009 Share Posted November 16, 2009 um...american mythos or not...it IS NOT A SIN to join the military, nor is it a sin to be a law enforcement official (which sternhauser had problems with in another thread...) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Era Might Posted November 16, 2009 Share Posted November 16, 2009 [quote name='J.aime' date='15 November 2009 - 07:54 PM' timestamp='1258332846' post='2003412'] I'm about to criticize a mod. If you're going to translate what I'm saying, do it correctly or don't do it at all. Also, let me point out the problem of "Oh I didn't read the thread but I'll comment anyway" makes you look like an idiot. I'll be back in an hour. [/quote] I find this post disrespectful, J.aime, and I wish you would not bring up hard feelings from the past. My post was not meant to be combative. And to be honest, I feel disrespected that you would approach me in such a way. There is no need to respond to this post. I just wanted to let you know that I feel disrespected. I will not be responding further in this thread, and I hope there are no hard feelings from anyone about my one and only post in this thread, because it was not my intention to get into an argument with anyone. I have purposely avoided participating in this discussion precisely because I knew that it would only lead to hard feelings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IcePrincessKRS Posted November 16, 2009 Share Posted November 16, 2009 [quote name='Sternhauser' date='15 November 2009 - 07:04 PM' timestamp='1258326289' post='2003363'] I have. They are joining an institution that kills, primarily motivated by money. What differentiates a United State soldier from a mercenary, if that is the case? That is not to say that being a mercenary is morally wrong. But it does raise the question, "Is money itself a good reason to kill other people?" And if it is not a good enough reason in itself, I ask again: do you really trust politicians to decide who you may justly kill? This is not about having something [i]happen[/i] to you. I am not talking about a passion, I am talking about an [i]action[/i]. Actions must be guided in some part by reason. Is it [i]reasonable[/i] to put oneself in the violent service of politicians/the will of the majority? Or are you guided by faith in the politicians that decide who you may morally kill? ~Sternhauser [/quote] There's a lot more to it on the soldier's side than money and "just doing what the evil politicians say" but, frankly, this is getting old and I don't feel like hashing it all out with you. The details of the year+ of prayer and discussion that went into our decision to enlist are really none of your business. You are entitled to hold the opinions you do, and I disagree with them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaime Posted November 16, 2009 Share Posted November 16, 2009 [quote name='Era Might' date='15 November 2009 - 08:01 PM' timestamp='1258333276' post='2003422'] I find this post disrespectful, [/quote] Well then I wrote it correctly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fidei Defensor Posted November 16, 2009 Share Posted November 16, 2009 This is a stupid thread. I find it offensive that if I don't agree with every military endeavor our government decides is appropriate, I'm suddenly spitting in the face of soldiers or their families. Contrary to popular belief, not every battle is absolutely essential to our "freedom." The most ironic part of this topic is that those who tend to get very angry with those who disagree over the military are the same people who distrust everything else the government does. I guess I don't understand the conservative mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paddington Posted November 16, 2009 Share Posted November 16, 2009 My dad never disagreed with WW2 (his war) or the nuclear bombings. After that he had nuanced views on wars and flat-out disagreed with Iraq-2. He would never disparage troops now or at any time and I agree with him. The arms-makers, other businesses, the government and their relationships made him concerned to say it mildly. Smedley Butler, who I know nothing about and perhaps should learn about, reminded me of some things my dad used to say. To say it better, I did disagree with Max saying "the Smedley Butler card," because it made those opinions sound fringe and overly political. That is how I understand "the [u]insert anything here[/u] card." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightofChrist Posted November 16, 2009 Share Posted November 16, 2009 [quote name='fidei defensor' date='15 November 2009 - 08:36 PM' timestamp='1258335405' post='2003444'] he most ironic part of this topic is that those who tend to get very angry with those who disagree over the military are the same people who distrust everything else the government does. [/quote] Rather what is ironic about this topic is that someone is saying just being in the military is evil. That is what most people in this thread found offensive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maximilianus Posted November 16, 2009 Share Posted November 16, 2009 (edited) Edited November 16, 2009 by Maximilianus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norseman82 Posted November 16, 2009 Share Posted November 16, 2009 [quote name='Sternhauser' date='15 November 2009 - 06:24 PM' timestamp='1258327446' post='2003371'] No soldier since 1865 has died while fighting to protect the freedoms of anyone who lives within the United State. [/quote] Are you kidding me? [img]http://wasteddomain.com/gallery/d/568-1/picard-sigh.jpg[/img] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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