Sternhauser Posted November 14, 2009 Author Share Posted November 14, 2009 (edited) [quote name='Maggie' date='13 November 2009 - 02:00 PM' timestamp='1258135250' post='2002184'] Military service is an occasion of sin? Someone better tell the Archbishop of the Military ordinate. And the Pope who appointed him. This is why pacifism will mostly likely always be a fringe position in the Church: they just can't wrap their minds around the concept that while it's OK for them to feel that way and to follow their conscience in this regard, they can't legitimately cast judgment on other's choices. It is NOT the Church's teaching that military service is sinful or an occasion of sin or that you can not be a model Catholic while bearing arms. And it is not OK to represent that it is. [/quote] Prisons have chaplains, too. Does that make it acceptable to do that which is necessary to become a convict? ~Sternhauser Edited November 14, 2009 by Sternhauser Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sternhauser Posted November 14, 2009 Author Share Posted November 14, 2009 (edited) [quote name='cmotherofpirl' date='13 November 2009 - 03:00 PM' timestamp='1258138804' post='2002254'] Who in the hell are you to decide that joining the military is [b]any[/b] kind of sin? Who died and left you boss? I mean seriously that statement was totally uncalled for, ignorant, disrespectful, uncharitable, unchristian and downright rude. And that is about as charitable as I can get. Especially several days after Veterans Day #$%^$%&*$%^&I%^! [/quote] Would you have been nearly so outraged if I had said "Christ did not die for your sins?" ~Sternhauser Edited November 14, 2009 by Sternhauser Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmotherofpirl Posted November 14, 2009 Share Posted November 14, 2009 [quote name='Sternhauser' date='13 November 2009 - 10:25 PM' timestamp='1258165515' post='2002442'] Would you have been nearly so outraged if I had said "Christ did not die for your sins?" ~Sternhauser [/quote] This is annoyed, that would make me MAD. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T-Bone _ Posted November 14, 2009 Share Posted November 14, 2009 [quote name='Sternhauser' date='13 November 2009 - 07:21 PM' timestamp='1258165290' post='2002440'] Prisons have chaplains, too. Does that make it acceptable to do that which is necessary to become a convict? ~Sternhauser [/quote] The prison chaplains aren't usually prisoners, though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sternhauser Posted November 14, 2009 Author Share Posted November 14, 2009 (edited) [quote name='cmotherofpirl' date='13 November 2009 - 10:32 PM' timestamp='1258165969' post='2002449'] This is annoyed, that would make me MAD. [/quote] Somehow I don't think it would have prompted nearly the same abusive response as saying "the troops did not die to protect your rights/freedom/homeland." But of course, only one of those statements would be a falsehood. ~Sternhauser Edited November 14, 2009 by Sternhauser Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sternhauser Posted November 14, 2009 Author Share Posted November 14, 2009 [quote name='T-Bone _' date='13 November 2009 - 10:34 PM' timestamp='1258166054' post='2002451'] The prison chaplains aren't usually prisoners, though. [/quote] They're also not participating in killing. ~Sternhauser Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T-Bone _ Posted November 14, 2009 Share Posted November 14, 2009 [quote name='Sternhauser' date='13 November 2009 - 07:35 PM' timestamp='1258166155' post='2002453'] They're also not participating in killing. ~Sternhauser [/quote] The ones that minister to death row inmates are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sternhauser Posted November 14, 2009 Author Share Posted November 14, 2009 (edited) [quote name='T-Bone _' date='13 November 2009 - 10:44 PM' timestamp='1258166643' post='2002456'] The ones that minister to death row inmates are. [/quote] Hearing confessions and administering the last rites are participating in killing? Hearing confessions and administering the last rights is absolutely not cooperation in killing whatsoever, neither formally nor materially. ~Sternhauser Edited November 14, 2009 by Sternhauser Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T-Bone _ Posted November 14, 2009 Share Posted November 14, 2009 [quote name='Sternhauser' date='13 November 2009 - 07:45 PM' timestamp='1258166728' post='2002458'] Hearing confessions and administering the last rites are participating in killing? Hearing confessions and administering the last rights is absolutely not cooperation in killing whatsoever, neither formally nor materially. ~Sternhauser [/quote] Same with the military chaplains. Your logic fails, buddy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sternhauser Posted November 14, 2009 Author Share Posted November 14, 2009 (edited) [quote name='T-Bone _' date='13 November 2009 - 10:49 PM' timestamp='1258166982' post='2002462'] Same with the military chaplains. Your logic fails, buddy. [/quote] I never argued that it was wrong for chaplains to be in the military in order to forgive the sins of State soldiers. Where did I say anything of the sort? A soldier who does not kill or facilitate killing is hardly a "soldier" in the proper sense of the word. Everyone in the military, with the sole exception of chaplains, is expected to help in one fashion or another, formally or materially, in the mission of killing people. Even medics, who are expected to fix up the wounded to fight again, if the body can be salvaged. ~Sternhauser Edited November 14, 2009 by Sternhauser Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T-Bone _ Posted November 14, 2009 Share Posted November 14, 2009 [quote name='T-Bone _' date='13 November 2009 - 07:34 PM' timestamp='1258166054' post='2002451'] The prison chaplains aren't usually prisoners, though. [/quote] [quote name='Sternhauser' date='13 November 2009 - 07:35 PM' timestamp='1258166155' post='2002453'] They're also not participating in killing. ~Sternhauser [/quote] You did accuse military chaplains of participating in killing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sternhauser Posted November 14, 2009 Author Share Posted November 14, 2009 [quote name='T-Bone _' date='13 November 2009 - 10:58 PM' timestamp='1258167483' post='2002468'] You did accuse military chaplains of participating in killing. [/quote] No, I did not. Read what I actually wrote, again. When I said "they are not participating in killing," I was speaking of military chaplains, just as when I was speaking of prison chaplains, I was making an allegory to the military chaplains, by saying that the prison chaplains were not criminals, just as the military chaplains are not killing. It is not acceptable for a military chaplain to kill on behalf of politicians, just as it is not acceptable for a prison chaplain to commit a crime. ~Sternhauser Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paladin D Posted November 14, 2009 Share Posted November 14, 2009 (edited) [quote name='Sternhauser' date='13 November 2009 - 10:21 PM' timestamp='1258165290' post='2002440'] Prisons have chaplains, too. Does that make it acceptable to do that which is necessary to become a convict? [/quote] Correct me if I misread your statement, but are you lumping us (those that wear the uniform) together with criminals? [url="http://www.catholicmil.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=1532:veterans-day-message-from-fr-corapi&catid=54:other&Itemid=171"]Veterans Day Message from Fr. Corapi [/url] [quote]Every year in the United States of America we celebrate "Veterans' Day" on November 11th, which historically marked the armistice (originally Armistice Day) ending World War I. If you are interested in the history of this American holiday, you can easily find it using Google, or any web search engine. We should all be very thankful for the service of our veterans. Our country and the freedoms we sometimes take for granted were won by, and constantly protected by, the veterans of our Armed Forces. My grandfather served in the US Army during World War I; my father in the Navy Seabees in the South Pacific, some of my uncles served in the Marines, the Navy, and the Air Force during the Korean War. I enlisted in the Army in the late 1960s myself. The Catechism of the Catholic Church, "a sure norm for teaching the faith," as Pope John Paul II asserted, says this about military service in paragraph #2310, quoting "Gaudium et Spes": "Those who are sworn to serve their country in the armed forces are servants of the security and freedom of nations. If they carry out their duty honorably, they truly contribute to the common good of the nation and the maintenance of peace." It is the obligation of all of us, individuals and governments alike, to work assiduously for peace. As my Grandmother often said to me, "war is hell." She knew as she had a husband and son that fought in both world wars, had nephews and a grandson go off to faraway places. She prayed, worried, and suffered because of war. Nonetheless, she knew, like so many of us do, that without the sacrifices of themselves and their loved ones, there would be no enduring freedom. There is always something to be learned from the natural order that can be applied to the spiritual and moral life. One of the most common underlying misconceptions and fallacious presuppositions is that there is no evil in the world, that no one will hurt you if you just don't hurt them. Wrong! There is evil in the world, there has been since darkness entered into Eden, and there will be until Jesus comes again in glory. There is good and there is evil; there is truth and there are lies; there is life and there is death. Being neutral is a myth. Sitting on a fence is an accident waiting to happen. In the end you will be "for me or against me," as Jesus says. We are at war and "our battle is not against flesh and blood," as St. Paul asserts in his letter to the Ephesians. A good soldier is ready to shed his blood, sweat, and tears for the cause of freedom. Jesus tells us, "I've come to set the captives free." The servant is no better, no different, than his Master. The bottom line of war is victory, and this war is for an eternal prize. We honor our veterans this week, and rightly so. Let their sacrifices for our country inspire you to even higher things. You and I are called to fight the good fight and run the race to the finish line. Performing our mission as good Catholics and Christians affects countless other souls, some we know, some we don't. So, as St. Paul cautions us, "Don't shadow box. Fight so as to win." Don't imagine there is not a moral and spiritual war either. This fight results in victory or defeat, Heaven or hell, forever. God bless you.[/quote] Edited November 14, 2009 by Paladin D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sternhauser Posted November 14, 2009 Author Share Posted November 14, 2009 (edited) [quote name='Paladin D' date='13 November 2009 - 11:53 PM' timestamp='1258170785' post='2002480'] Correct me if I misread your statement, but are you lumping us (those that wear the uniform) together with criminals?[/quote] Not all those who wear uniforms are criminals. But those who deliberately kill innocents are criminals, whatever kind of uniform they are wearing. Politicians are the people who send the military to kill. If you trust their moral judgment when it comes to what a "just war" is . . . [quote]Pope John Paul II asserted, says this about military service in paragraph #2310, quoting "Gaudium et Spes": "Those who are sworn to serve their country in the armed forces are servants of the security and freedom of nations." [/quote] German soldiers in WWII swore to serve their "country" in the armed forces. The Japanese Imperial army swore to serve their "country." Were they, [i]de facto, [/i]the "servants of the security and freedom of nations?" If you want to deny that the Wehrmacht and the Imperial Japanese Army were "servants of the security and freedom of nations," then you have to do some logical tap dancing around what John Paul II said. The fact is, serving the State by doing violence against whoever they tell you to kill does not, by its nature, equal "serving your country." Period. And for any who are reading this and cannot discern a logical argument on its own terms, "No, I am not, as a matter of fact, saying that United State troops are the moral equivalent of German stormtroopers or aggressors in the Bataan death march." ~Sternhauser Edited November 14, 2009 by Sternhauser Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CatherineM Posted November 14, 2009 Share Posted November 14, 2009 [quote name='Paladin D' date='13 November 2009 - 09:53 PM' timestamp='1258170785' post='2002480'] Correct me if I misread your statement, but are you lumping us (those that wear the uniform) together with criminals? [/quote] Yeah pretty much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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