IcePrincessKRS Posted November 13, 2009 Share Posted November 13, 2009 [quote name='Sternhauser' date='12 November 2009 - 10:32 PM' timestamp='1258079566' post='2001647'] Some choices cannot be respected, however noble their intent. ~Sternhauser [/quote] neither can ignorant opinions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paladin D Posted November 13, 2009 Share Posted November 13, 2009 (edited) Well I guess it's too late for me now, and for all those Catholic chaplains who serve in the U.S. Military as well. Edited November 13, 2009 by Paladin D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norseman82 Posted November 13, 2009 Share Posted November 13, 2009 [quote name='Paladin D' date='13 November 2009 - 12:28 PM' timestamp='1258133318' post='2002166'] and for all those Catholic chaplains who serve in the U.S. Military as well. [/quote] Fr. Vincent Cappodano, anyone? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starets Posted November 13, 2009 Share Posted November 13, 2009 [quote name='Paladin D' date='13 November 2009 - 11:28 AM' timestamp='1258133318' post='2002166'] Well I guess it's too late for me now, and for all those Catholic chaplains who serve in the U.S. Military as well. [/quote] Thank you for serving your country, Paladin D. You too, Picchick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maggyie Posted November 13, 2009 Share Posted November 13, 2009 Military service is an occasion of sin? Someone better tell the Archbishop of the Military ordinate. And the Pope who appointed him. This is why pacifism will mostly likely always be a fringe position in the Church: they just can't wrap their minds around the concept that while it's OK for them to feel that way and to follow their conscience in this regard, they can't legitimately cast judgment on other's choices. It is NOT the Church's teaching that military service is sinful or an occasion of sin or that you can not be a model Catholic while bearing arms. And it is not OK to represent that it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CatherineM Posted November 13, 2009 Share Posted November 13, 2009 I remember hearing Fr. Corapi say that immediately after 9-11, he went down to volunteer for the Army. They said no, but he didn't think it was immoral, surely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sojourner Posted November 13, 2009 Share Posted November 13, 2009 [quote name='Maggie' date='13 November 2009 - 01:00 PM' timestamp='1258135250' post='2002184'] Military service is an occasion of sin? Someone better tell the Archbishop of the Military ordinate. And the Pope who appointed him. This is why pacifism will mostly likely always be a fringe position in the Church: they just can't wrap their minds around the concept that while it's OK for them to feel that way and to follow their conscience in this regard, they can't legitimately cast judgment on other's choices. It is NOT the Church's teaching that military service is sinful or an occasion of sin or that you can not be a model Catholic while bearing arms. And it is not OK to represent that it is. [/quote] I agree. Even St. Martin didn't say that military service was a near occasion of sin, and some accounts trace the etymology of the word "chaplain" to the priests who were charged with guarding St. Martin's sacred cloak in battle. [quote]The story is told about St. Martin of Tours, a compassionate fourth century soldier, who encountered a shivering beggar on a cold winter night. Having no money in his purse, this soldier took off his cloak and slashed it with his sword to give half of it to the beggar. Later that night he saw a vision in which Jesus Christ was wearing the half-cloak. As a result of this experience he became a Christian and was baptized. Ultimately he left the army to devote his life to the church. In time he became the patron saint of the French kings of the Middle Ages. St. Martin's cloak (cappella) was carried into battle by the kings as a banner signifying "the presence of God." But since the cappella was a sacred relic of the church, a priest went along as custodian. This keeper of the cloak, or cappellanus, also tended the king's religious needs, and from his office was derived that of "chaplain." The depository for the cloak became the "chapel," the place of worship.[/quote] (see [url="http://www.chaplains.iphc.org/stories/etymology.html"]here[/url], and [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_of_Tours#cite_note-5"]Wikipedia[/url]references an article in the 1911 [i]Encyclopedia Britannica[/i] relating the same story) We have to be careful when taking saints' quotations out of context not to imply that there is meaning there that is not. When Protestants do the same thing using Scripture, we call it "proof texting" and we rightly disparage that sort of "scholarship" as being a scurrilous attempt to twist the words of Scripture to serve individual opinions. The proper ordering here is to form individual consciences to the entire body of Church teaching, not ignoring the parts of it that don't fit with our preferred worldview. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmotherofpirl Posted November 13, 2009 Share Posted November 13, 2009 [quote name='Sternhauser' date='12 November 2009 - 09:02 PM' timestamp='1258074156' post='2001546'] Not only a morally compromising position, but a full-blown near occasion of sin. Not sins of gluttony, or lust. Full-blown murder. The mafia and the military (especially the United State military) are probably the only two institutions that invariably threaten to kill you if you try to quit without their permission. Encouragement to those who are deciding whether or not to make a prudent decision with the course of their lives. And to encourage those who value reason over emotion, and who may therefore be close to realizing that belligerent action at the behest of the State is not an intrinsically laudable action. ~Sternhauser [/quote] Who in the hell are you to decide that joining the military is [b]any[/b] kind of sin? Who died and left you boss? I mean seriously that statement was totally uncalled for, ignorant, disrespectful, uncharitable, unchristian and downright rude. And that is about as charitable as I can get. Especially several days after Veterans Day #$%^$%&*$%^&I%^! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paladin D Posted November 13, 2009 Share Posted November 13, 2009 (edited) [quote name='cmotherofpirl' date='13 November 2009 - 03:00 PM' timestamp='1258138804' post='2002254'] Who in the hell are you to decide that joining the military is [b]any[/b] kind of sin? Who died and left you boss? I mean seriously that statement was totally uncalled for, ignorant, disrespectful, uncharitable, unchristian and downright rude. And that is about as charitable as I can get. Especially several days after Veterans Day #$%^$%&*$%^&I%^! [/quote] Call this cliche, but I think some people can't really comprehened that the reason we're free is due to the sacrifices (and in many cases, the supreme sacrifices) of countless men and women who served in the U.S. Armed Forces. During my Basic Training, our Drill Sergeant told us flat out that some of us, statistically, will not make it back home once we deploy. We just looked at each other, and the thought of some of us not making it back home shook me up. This isn't a game, it's for real. It's a crying shame that those who spend their entire lives critizing those who fight for their country, may never know how good they had it BECAUSE of the military. Edited November 13, 2009 by Paladin D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MIKolbe Posted November 13, 2009 Share Posted November 13, 2009 [quote name='Sternhauser' date='12 November 2009 - 10:32 PM' timestamp='1258079566' post='2001647'] I am not judging their hearts, which are doubtless well-intentioned. I am certainly not judging their souls. I judge the prudence and the manifest results of their decision to put themselves in the violent service of politicians. Some choices cannot be respected, however noble their intent. ~Sternhauser [/quote] Ich bin nicht beurteilen ihre Herzen, die ohne Zweifel sind gut gemeint. Ich bin sicher nicht der Beurteilung ihrer Seele. Ich beurteile die Klugheit und die offensichtlichen Ergebnisse ihrer Entscheidung, sich in den Dienst der gewalttätigen Politik ausüben. Einige Entscheidungen nicht eingehalten werden können, aber ihre edlen Absichten. Sternhauser ~ 私は間違いなくもされ、その心は、善意の判断ではない。私は確かに自分の魂を判断していない。私は、慎重さや意思決定の政治家の暴力的なサービスで自分自身をするのは、マニフェスト結果を判断します。いくつかの選択肢を尊重することはできませんしかし、貴族たちの意図。〜Sternhauser وأنا لا أحكم على قلوبهم ، والتي هي بلا شك حسنة النية. وبالتأكيد أنا لا أحكم على أرواحهم. أنا قاض والحذر واضحا من نتائج قرارهم لوضع أنفسهم في خدمة عنيفة من السياسيين وبعض الخيارات لا يمكن أن تكون محترمة ، ولكن النبيلة نيتهم. ~ Sternhauser somehow translating that in german, japanese and arabic seemed poignant.... God Bless our men and women who serve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lilllabettt Posted November 13, 2009 Share Posted November 13, 2009 [quote name='Sternhauser' date='12 November 2009 - 11:48 AM' timestamp='1258040883' post='2001290'] I have no need. Unlike St. Martin of Tours before his conversion, I thankfully did not put myself in a morally compromising position through signing up to serve what powers might be, and the subsequent likely possibility of being asked to kill the innocent. ~Sternhauser [/quote] This anarchy thing sounds like a great way to get out of taking responsibility for stuff. You get all the benefits of living in a state controlled society without having to "serve" it. Nice deal. You are in a morally compromising position though ... since you have opted not to live "off the grid" in Montana somewhere, and have instead freely chosen to suckle at the state's teat. Free rides to Afghanistan leaving with the Marines in a month or so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CatherineM Posted November 14, 2009 Share Posted November 14, 2009 [quote name='cmotherofpirl' date='13 November 2009 - 01:00 PM' timestamp='1258138804' post='2002254'] Who in the hell are you to decide that joining the military is [b]any[/b] kind of sin? Who died and left you boss? I mean seriously that statement was totally uncalled for, ignorant, disrespectful, uncharitable, unchristian and downright rude. And that is about as charitable as I can get. Especially several days after Veterans Day #$%^$%&*$%^&I%^! [/quote] Now that was a proper hissy fit. I concur 100%. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmotherofpirl Posted November 14, 2009 Share Posted November 14, 2009 [quote name='CatherineM' date='13 November 2009 - 09:44 PM' timestamp='1258163050' post='2002420'] Now that was a proper hissy fit. I concur 100%. [/quote] See, even northern ladies can get their Irish up if provoked enough... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sternhauser Posted November 14, 2009 Author Share Posted November 14, 2009 (edited) [quote name='MIkolbe' date='13 November 2009 - 06:01 PM' timestamp='1258149700' post='2002339'] Ich bin nicht beurteilen ihre Herzen, die ohne Zweifel sind gut gemeint. Ich bin sicher nicht der Beurteilung ihrer Seele. Ich beurteile die Klugheit und die offensichtlichen Ergebnisse ihrer Entscheidung, sich in den Dienst der gewalttätigen Politik ausüben. Einige Entscheidungen nicht eingehalten werden können, aber ihre edlen Absichten. Sternhauser ~ 私は間違いなくもされ、その心は、善意の判断ではない。私は確かに自分の魂を判断していない。私は、慎重さや意思決定の政治家の暴力的なサービスで自分自身をするのは、マニフェスト結果を判断します。いくつかの選択肢を尊重することはできませんしかし、貴族たちの意図。〜Sternhauser وأنا لا أحكم على قلوبهم ، والتي هي بلا شك حسنة النية. وبالتأكيد أنا لا أحكم على أرواحهم. أنا قاض والحذر واضحا من نتائج قرارهم لوضع أنفسهم في خدمة عنيفة من السياسيين وبعض الخيارات لا يمكن أن تكون محترمة ، ولكن النبيلة نيتهم. ~ Sternhauser somehow translating that in german, japanese and arabic seemed poignant.... [/quote] Why is it poignant to translate it into those languages? Ah, I see. So the Wehrmacht, Japanese Imperial Army, and non-existent Arab invasion force veterans who all "served" and "fought for their countries" can read it, too? Thank you kindly. You are right to honor the memory of their "service," of course. Because "service" is an intrinsically laudable action. If you think the Germans, Japanese, or Arabs could have invaded/can invade and occupy the United State, you are tremendously mistaken. For the record, I'd like to retract my "near occasion of sin" statement. It is not a near occasion of sin. I will instead say that if you are sent to kill by politicians, there is a high likelihood that you will kill innocent people (such as Iraqis and Afghanis defending their homelands from unjust invaders and occupiers) and a 99.9% chance that they never posed a threat of invasion and occupation of the Fatherland, and thus they are not "protecting our freedoms." John Paul II condemned the Iraq war, saying it was not justifiable under the just war theory. That is something we should "never forget." ~Sternhauser Edited November 14, 2009 by Sternhauser Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sternhauser Posted November 14, 2009 Author Share Posted November 14, 2009 (edited) [quote name='Lilllabettt' date='13 November 2009 - 06:31 PM' timestamp='1258151506' post='2002357'] This anarchy thing sounds like a great way to get out of taking responsibility for stuff. You get all the benefits of living in a state controlled society without having to "serve" it. Nice deal. You are in a morally compromising position though ... since you have opted not to live "off the grid" in Montana somewhere, and have instead freely chosen to suckle at the state's teat. Free rides to Afghanistan leaving with the Marines in a month or so. [/quote] Being forced to pay taxes by violence or the threat of violence is not "free choice" in any sane meaning of the term. As for the military and what they do, you said that my arguments on the same subject were compelling, and that I had won the argument. Your reversion is amazing. ~Sternhauser Edited November 14, 2009 by Sternhauser Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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